▲ 1 r/StarWarsTheories+1 crossposts

What if Snoke was never a clone, but a 10,000-year-old scholar who spent millennia preparing the galaxy for the Grysk Hegenomy? (Theory)

Hello there!

I want to preface this theory by saying: I love the Sequel Trilogy. I grew up with these movies, and The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi mean a lot to me. That being said, I've always felt The Rise of Skywalker did the first two films dirty by stepping back from their boldest setups instead of giving us a truly unique final installment.

Because of that, I've been developing a major fan project called Star Wars: The Codex Canon. It's an overhauled timeline where I'll be integrating rewritten Legends stories into Canon, refining elements from both timelines, completely rewriting Episode IX, and building out a post-TLJ era that continues the story in a way that feels deeply satisfying, unique, and cohesive.

This post serves as both a theory for how Snoke should have been handled and the foundational building blocks of his character in The Codex Canon. It builds directly off my previous post about the First Order being a proxy state for the Grysk Hegemony.

Additionally, this theory dismisses the idea of Snoke being Palpatine's "strand-cast" puppet. For the sake of a better overarching story (sorry, The Rise of Skywalker!), we are mostly ignoring TRoS. Instead, this theory focuses on the lore established during The Force Awakens, The Last Jedi, and Charles Soule's The Rise of Kylo Ren graphic novel series.

If Snoke wasn't a Palpatine clone, who was he, where did he come from, and what was his actual goal? Here's my take:

"Long before the Republic existed, before hyperspace routes connected the galactic core to the outer worlds, there lived a human-like species known as the Oruuni (random name; let me know if I should replace it!). They inhabited the worlds clustered along the edge of the Unknown Regions. The Oruuni were not warriors or conquerors, but observers. Their civilization dedicated itself entirely to understanding patterns (even in the Force itself). They viewed existence as a vast equation waiting to be solved.

Among them was a Force-sensitive philosopher. He had no name, as their culture did not believe in such. However, he had a passion.

In his youth, this philosopher was brilliant, even by Oruuni standards. He was fascinated by what lay beyond the galactic horizon. Every species in the galaxy eventually turned its eyes inward toward politics, conquest, or survival. This philosopher was obsessed with what existed outside the map. He spent centuries studying ancient ruins scattered throughout the Unknown Regions. While most cultures viewed the Force as spiritual, the philosopher viewed it differently. He believed that consciousness itself was a navigational phenomenon. To him, the Force was was an infrastructure.

This obsession eventually led the philosopher to Exegol. Within the planet's catacombs existed ancient lens arrays used for studying the Unknown Regions (capable of amplifying perception across impossible distances!). The philosopher, now Snoke, looked through them and saw the Grysk Hegemony.

What Snoke encountered beyond the galactic barrier was not simply a species, but a form of collective intelligence operating on scales his people, or any people, had never imagined. Societies under the Grysks were stripped of individuality and therefore free from the inefficiencies of ego, nationalism, and emotional attachment.

To Snoke, this was beautiful! Most beings who encountered the Grysks lost themselves completely, but Snoke survived because his mind was uniquely structured around abstraction and observation. Thus, the Grysks transformed him.

His body aged unevenly. Bone structures warped. Muscles deteriorated. His mind became synchronized with entities millions of lightyears away.

Yet unlike many cosmic horror stories, Snoke never viewed himself as a victim. He loved what had happened. Where others saw invasion, he saw evolution. Where others saw extinction, he saw transcendence. The galaxy was fragmented. The Republic collapsed repeatedly. The Jedi failed repeatedly. The Sith failed repeatedly. Every civilization eventually descended into corruption and violence.

The Grysk Hegemony, however, endured. To Snoke, this was evidence that the galaxy deserved to be replaced.

For thousands of years, he became the Grysk Hegemony's First Navigator - not a slave, a missionary, a scholar, an architect, and a prophet.

The Oruuni eventually vanished and Snoke became the last of his species. He never mourned them. In fact, he often referred to extinction as a natural correction mechanism.

Throughout galactic history, Snoke became a ghost, rarely appearing directly and almost never taking the credit. He learned that civilizations are easier to manipulate when they believe themselves autonomous.

Entire political movements unknowingly emerged from information he seeded centuries earlier. Religious cults formed around prophecies he had manufactured. Corporate monopolies arose from economic models he subtly introduced through intermediaries.

Many historical figures encountered Snoke without ever realizing it. For example, a Republic Senator might've received an anonymous manuscript that spurned on their support of a certain bill. Again and again, the same invisible hand appears, nudging along history and cataloguing outcomes like a scientist conducting an experiment.

What makes Snoke frightening here, at least to me, is that he is actually curious. He studies species the way a biologist studies insects and spends decades observing cultures simply because he finds them interesting. He learns languages no one speaks anymore, collects extinct philosophies, and maintains entire archives dedicated to civilizations that vanished before the Republic ever existed. He can discuss Naboo poetry, Rakatan engineering, Sith theology, Chiss navigation, Jedi philosophy, and Corellian economics with equal expertise, yet none of this knowledge makes him compassionate. It merely makes him better at manipulation.

Unlike Palpatine, who desired power for himself, Snoke is fascinated by systems. He wants to understand why civilizations fail. The answer he repeatedly arrives at is individuality. Freedom. Choice. Love. All of which are things Star Wars traditionally celebrates; Snoke concludes they are flaws.

This ideological foundation explains his obsession with Luke Skywalker. Luke represents the opposite conclusion. Where Snoke sees chaos, Luke sees hope. Where Snoke sees inefficiency, Luke sees humanity. Their eventual encounter, spoken about in The Rise of Kylo Ren, becomes more mythological than physical (plus, I can't see Snoke twirling around with a lightsaber).

When Snoke approaches Luke in the years following Thrawn's defeat, he arrives as a scholar, an ancient wanderer, and a seeker of knowledge. For months, he studies Luke and slowly begins testing him. Conversations become debates, debates become arguments, and arguments become psychic duels. Eventually, Luke attempts to understand what lies behind Snoke's mind. What he finds is not darkness, which would've been familiar and, in a twisted way, more comforting. Instead, Luke encounters absence - a vast hunger stretching beyond the galaxy itself, with billions of thoughts moving as one. Snoke carries an intelligence so large it barely notices individuals.

For one of the first times in his life since A New Hope, Luke Skywalker experiences true terror. The confrontation that follows is swift and violent. Luke's green lightsaber splits Snoke's skull down the middle (the wound we see in the Sequel Trilogy), never fully healing.

From that moment onward, Snoke becomes obsessed with Luke's destruction. Not so much because Luke wounded him, but because Luke had the AUDACITY to reject someone as wordly and knowledgeable as him. For thousands of years, civilizations had eventually embraced Snoke's conclusions. Luke did not, choosing "inferior" humanity and infuriating Snoke.

This months-long dynamic Snoke and Luke had also explains how Han, Leia, Chewbacca, C-3PO, R2-D2, and later, the Resistance, know Snoke by name.

Years after his confrontation with Luke, Snoke's obsession moves toward Ben Solo (which is where things get even more disturbing). Much like Palpatine's grooming of Anakin, Snoke's manipulation of Ben is personal, predatory, and patient. He begins long before anyone realizes, planting ideas, creating emotional dependencies, and positioning himself as the one figure who truly understands him. He studies Ben's insecurities the way an entomologist studies insect behavior. He knows exactly when to offer praise, when to withdraw affection, and when to manufacture isolation.

By this point, the relationship between Snoke and Ben has very uncomfortable undertones because Snoke intentionally blurs the boundaries between mentor, father figure, confessor, friend, and god.

Ben becomes emotionally dependent on Snoke before he realizes he is being manipulated (which is exactly how Snoke intends it).

Snoke studies attachment because attachment is the easiest way to reshape identity, yet even then, Ben Solo is not his ultimate objective. Ben is merely a tool, or rather, a compass - the culmination of centuries of research into Force-sensitive navigation.

Through his studies of the Chiss Sky-Walkers, ancient Jedi records, and midichlorians, Snoke arrives at a startling conclusion. The Skywalker bloodline is directional. Anakin, Luke, Leia, and Ben possess unique relationships with spatial intuition through the Force.

To the Grysk Hegemony, Ben Solo is not a future emperor, but their infrastructure as a living beacon. As Snoke might put it, Ben is a biological lighthouse capable of guiding extragalactic fleets through barriers no machine can chart.

Everything Snoke builds exists to prepare for this moment. The First Order. The Supremacy. Starkiller Base. The political destabilization.

All of it serves the purpose of opening the door.

Meanwhile, Snoke constructs Caduun-Ves (the garden planet he presumably lived on during The Rise of Kylo Ren). The world appears beautiful, with massive glowing gardens, artificial oceans, perfect ecosystems, bioluminescent forests, and ancient statues, yet nothing there is natural. Every tree was engineered, every animal designed, and every ecosystem curated. It is a world where life exists only through control - a paradise stripped of freedom.

In many ways, Caduun-Ves is Snoke's vision for the galaxy itself: beautiful, efficient, and dead. Within its gardens, he entertains diplomats, studies rare species, and conducts philosophical conversations with prisoners.

Visitors often leave believing they have met a benevolent sage, only later realizing every conversation was an experiment. Every compliment a manipulation, every kindness calculated… even Snoke's use of the dark side is performative.

Snoke deliberately imitates Sith traditions: the robes, the lightning, the apprentice, the throne, the mythology. He understands that people respond to familiar archetypes. Kylo Ren wants to feel connected to Vader, therefore, Snoke gives him a Sith narrative.

Privately, however, Snoke considers both Jedi and Sith primitive tribes arguing over shadows on a cave wall.

He studies Force Dyads the same way. When he claims credit for Rey and Ben's connection, he is lying, but the lie reveals something important about Snoke - that he knows exactly what a Force Dyad is. He has spent centuries researching them and recognizes the phenomenon immediately, simply wanting Ben to believe he controls it. Knowledge itself becomes Snoke's greatest weapon.

Snoke knows secrets no living being should know - buried beneath extinct civilizations, hidden in hyperspace anomalies, etc. Snoke knows secrets even Palpatine never uncovered.

By the time of The Force Awakens, Snoke believes he has solved every variable. Luke is isolated, the Jedi are dead/dying, Ben belongs to him, and the Grysk arrival is inevitable. Then comes Rey. And finally, in The Last Jedi, Kylo Ren kills him.

In my eyes, the irony is perfect. For thousands of years, Snoke manipulated history, calculated outcomes, predicted behavior, studied civilizations, and observed every possibility, yet he never truly understood the one thing he despised the most: human choice.

In the final moment, Ben acts irrationally, emotionally, and most importantly, individually (the exact qualities Snoke spent millennia dismissing). His body falls in two pieces; the man who devoted his life to collective consciousness killed by an act of personal will.

And in death, Snoke's final horror emerges. He was never the master… only the herald. Only the voice.

Beyond the galactic barrier, the beings he worshipped are still on their way. Plans have been set in motion that cannot be undone.

For the first time in thousands of years, the galaxy must face the possibility that Snoke was right. Something far older, far larger, and far hungrier than any Sith or Empire has been patiently waiting in the dark between galaxies, and the only being who fully understood it has just been killed."

There you have it! My backstory for Snoke. I feel that framing Snoke like this changes his death in The Last Jedi from being a narrative dead-end into the catalyst for an even larger, more terrifying cosmic threat. It makes Kylo Ren's decision to strike him down hit way harder, and sets up a post-TLJ galaxy for The Codex Canon that is both dangerous and fresh!

Thoughts?

reddit.com
u/DogeABanana — 10 days ago

The Supremacy Sequence/Holdo Maneuver Build-Up in The Last Jedi is Fantastic!

Hello there!

Regardless of where you stand on The Last Jedi, the film's pivotal second-act crescendo is, objectively, a triumph. For the 11 minutes and 36 seconds leading up to the Holdo Maneuver, director Rian Johnson and editor Bob Ducsay manage to juggle three completely different scales of conflict, ramping them all up to a simultaneous boiling point. This stretch of the film, which I call the Supremacy Sequence, operates on a level that DEMANDS a second look from anyone critical of the movie (i.e, the majority of the Star Wars fandom). This sequence is all the more impressive when you realize it's not even the film's true climax (with nearly an hour still left on the clock for the Battle of Crait).

The brilliance of this sequence lies in how isolated the three narratives are, yet how perfectly they mirror one another. On the macro level, the survival of the Resistance fleet is playing out in the vacuum of space. On the mythological level, Rey and Kylo Ren are trapped in Snoke's throne room, engaging in a conflict over the future of the Force. Finally, Finn and Rose face the ugly reality of wartime choices, sold out by DJ and sentenced to a public execution by Phasma.

As the Supremacy Sequence unfolds further, The Last Jedi tightens the screws on all three fronts! The dialogue and themes across these scenes begin to converse with one another; for example, DJ's apathetic justification that survival is "just business" serves as the monetary equivalent to Kylo Ren's "let old things die" mindset. Both philosophies represent a surrender to the galaxy's darkest cycles, leaving our protagonists cornered. Finn and Rose are forced to their knees before the executioners while Rey is mentally overpowered by Snoke and than Kylo Ren, forced to confront the harshest possible truth about her lineage while struggling in a tug-of-war for the Skywalker saber.

The tension then accelerates, but it's not resolved by a single hero saving the day. Instead comes a sudden shattering of the status quo across all three plotlines. Kylo and Rey's Force struggle fractures the legacy lightsaber (i.e, the franchise's past) right as Holdo destroys the Supremacy. The Holdo Maneuver itself acts as the release for 11 and a half minutes of pressure across three stories (which delivers one of the most breathtaking visuals in the Skywalker Saga while seamlessly propelling the narrative toward its resolution).

However, all that's just my take on this event. If you have a different one, go ahead and share! 👀

u/DogeABanana — 24 days ago

QFTC: What is this garment the (older) women of Westeros often wear and what is its significance? Why do older women often wear it?

I've noticed that both Sabitha Frey, Olenna Tyrell, and the Septas of the Seven wear a very distinctive hooded/veiled head covering. Olenna's is explicitly described by the actress, Diana Rigg (R.I.P.) as a "wimple", while Sabitha's appears to be a similar coif-and-veil style. If that question is answered, what do you think the significance of such a garment is and why it's only older women that often wear it? Is it religious? Medical? I need answers!

u/DogeABanana — 1 month ago
▲ 87 r/TheBlacksandTheGreens+1 crossposts

I feel like Rhaenyra and Alicent's parenting styles were swapped in House of the Dragon.

One of the most glaring inconsistencies in House of the Dragon is its construction of Rhaenyra Targaryen and Alicent Hightower as mothers. The series depicts Rhaenyra as an exceptionally attentive, incredibly loving, and emotionally intelligent parent, while Alicent is presented as a mother whose anxieties, repression, and rigidity have damaged her children. While parenthood is inherently complex - and children often differ wildly from their parents - this post-Episode 5 shift abandons the foundational characterization established in the first half of Season 1.

Rhaenyra

Simply put: Rhaenyra should not be the healthier parent of the two.

That doesn't mean Rhaenyra should be an abusive mother or a woman incapable of loving her children (S2 Alicent, I'm looking at you); she should be affectionate with them, protective of them, interested in their lives, and capable of care. However, none of those qualities erase the traits with which the series introduced her. Rhaenyra is (or rather, was) rebellious, impulsive, entitled, self-centered, demanding, and accustomed to having the people around her accommodate her desires. Her capacity for love is undeniable, but it is matched by her tendency to "consume" those around her.

I'm currently working on a rewrite of House of the Dragon, and this monologue (given by Rhaenys) perfectly describes Rhaenyra as a person:

"You consume people, Rhaenyra. They come to you whole, and in your thrall, they are diminished. Aemma's memory. Alicent's devotion. Vaemond's tongue. My son. You pluck from this family flesh that feeds your false likeness, and leave the living to reckon with the wounds."

That is the Rhaenyra we were given in Episodes 1-5 of HotD S1. She is not a misunderstood girl who wants to be free, but a princess who frequently treats other people's lives as resources available for her use. She expects Viserys's love to shield her from consequences. She expects Criston's unwavering loyalty even after crossing professional boundaries. She expects Laenor's political protection while building a separate family with Harwin Strong. When Vaemond challenges her children's legitimacy, she does not rely on persuasion, but violence.

Ultimately, Rhaenyra Targaryen is NOT the kind of person who should become a healthy parent simply because she has children. If anything, motherhood should expose a great contradiction in Rhaenyra: she loves her children but struggles to recognize them as separate entities from her own political project. She should defend them so aggressively that she fails to teach them accountability, inadvertently allowing their entitlement to fester. Plus, having Daemon as a father figure… that adds up to a big yikes!

Now, let's talk about Jacaerys Velaryon (Waters).

I like Jace. I think Jace is one of the stronger characters on Team Black, and I understand perfectly well why people love him. I cried at his death! However, I believe the fandom's tendency to point at Jace and say, "Look at how Rhaenyra raised such a gentleman!" exposes the issue. Jace should NOT be a gentleman (or at the very least, not in the uncomplicated sense) merely because Rhaenyra raised him. While he should be charming, intelligent, protective, and capable of controlling himself at court (much like Young Rhaenyra), beneath that polish, Jace should have inherited some of Rhaenyra's entitlement. He should believe that his family is entitled to what it claims. He should be courteous toward people he considers his equals while still having difficulty seeing the humanity of those "beneath him". Instead, the show frequently makes Jace the evidence that Rhaenyra's parenting worked - but why would it?

Rhaenyra's children grow up surrounded by an extraordinary amount of privilege, political protection, and institutional violence. Hell, Rhaenyra's youngest sons - Joffrey, Aegon III, and Viserys II - grow up with Daemon as a father! Jace, Luke, and Joffrey are told that they are legitimate despite everyone at court knowing otherwise. Their grandsire threatens mutilation against anyone who says otherwise. Vaemond Velaryon loses his life (and in Fire & Blood, the Silent Five lose their tongues) for challenging their legitimacy. Daemon, their latest father figure, murders him in front of the court, while their mother continues to insist that they are the rightful heirs. Their family expects other people to accept an enormous lie because acknowledging the truth would threaten them, and somehow, the boys emerge as almost entirely humble, emotionally healthy gentlemen.

While it's not impossible for Rhaenyra's children to be well-rounded people, it's certainly unconvincing. Jace, Luke, and Joffrey should have been products of their environment. They should be children who absorbed the values of their family. They should understand that people will die to preserve their position and not really care. They should understand that their mother's claim is not merely a philosophical question but the organizing principle of their lives. They should have an enormous sense of loyalty, but that loyalty should sometimes become an inability to recognize where their family's interests end and other people's rights begin.

Furthermore, TikTok loves to describe Rhaenyra and Laenor's relationship as a "healthy lavender marriage", and consequently describes Jace and Luke as having been raised in this wonderful environment with two loving fathers. There is certainly something touching about the affection between Rhaenyra, Laenor, Harwin, Jace, and Luke, but the fandom's tendency to romanticize the arrangement ignores how complicated and dysfunctional it actually is. Rhaenyra's children grow up knowing - or at minimum being surrounded by an environment in which they can eventually discover - that their legal father is not their biological father. Their mother is married to one man while carrying on a relationship with another and the children are growing up within a royal fishbowl where their family's survival hinges on a massive lie.

If Rhaenyra’s sons were truly products of their environment, they would display the ugly realities of aristocratic privilege.

- A Jace who can be charming and gracious at court but cruel to a servant would be more interesting than a Jace who is simply "the gentleman".
- A Luke who loves his mother but laughs when a servant is humiliated would allow us to infer about the environment in which he was raised.
- A Joffrey who is spoiled and reckless precisely because he is the youngest and most protected >!would make sense given his death!<.

If Rhaenyra's sons were going to inherit the worst aspects of her entitlement, then it would not be unreasonable for one of them to have a storyline involving sexual misconduct, either. Rhaenyra teaches her children that their claim must be defended, that they deserve what has been promised to them, and that the world is something they must force to accommodate them.

Alicent

Conversely, Alicent's family is treated by the writers and by the fandom as the total opposite: a toxic household where she is entirely to blame for her children's damage (and not the negligent father, but sure). This is where HotD gets Alicent Hightower especially wrong (besides selling out her sons, but I am choosing to ignore that for the sake of a discussion surrounding Season 1).

Alicent should have been a fantastic mother. Not because she is young and therefore incapable of mistakes, and not because she should somehow be perfect. Her youth matters in this, as she is still a teenager when she becomes queen, is maritally raped, and begins having children. Additionally, Alicent has been raised by a father who views her primarily as a political asset and is suddenly married to an older king who is emotionally unavailable and still grieving his first wife. Plus, she has children that are entangled in a succession crisis upon birth and is surrounded by people who constantly tell her what said children must become.

Of course Alicent will make mistakes - much like every parent - but those mistakes should come out of love for her children. If Alicent doesn't love her children, why is this war happening in the first place? But alas…

Alicent is introduced as kind, conscientious, dutiful, attentive, socially perceptive, emotionally intelligent, and concerned with other people's expectations. She has been conditioned to sacrifice herself for her family and for her friend(s). As a whole, Alicent is introduced as a courteous girl who believes that her value comes from fulfilling her obligations to others, which means motherhood should initially be the one place where Alicent refuses to repeat what was done to her. She should look at Aegon, Helaena, Aemond, and Daeron and think: "You will not become what my father made me." Instead, the show makes Alicent incapable of understanding her children.

Aemond

As a child, Aemond was mocked because he did not have a dragon, humiliated by his older brother and his nephews, and later, is attacked/permanently disabled by said nephews. There is no reason why he should consequently have "mommy issues", as his mother is the one adult in his life who responds fiercely when he is injured. Alicent was enraged on Aemond's behalf, demanded an eye for an eye, physically confronted the king and his daughter, and was willing to challenge the entire royal household because her child had been maimed. Aemond, therefore, should understand that his mother loves him. His problem shouldn't be that "Oh, Mother never loved me." An interesting route to take for Aemond could've been "Mother loved me so fiercely that I learned, from her actions, that what was done to me must be avenged by any means possible."

Alicent should've raised Aemond to understand that being bullied did not make him weak and that being maimed did not make him less than. She should've taught him that he was entitled to justice, but because she is frightened for him and their family and is locked into a cycle of consistent retaliation, Aemond finds that strength is the only protection he has available. His eventual ruthlessness should not stem from maternal neglect, but maternal overprotection combined with a culture of violence.

Helaena

If Helaena is to remain a neurodivergent Dragon Dreamer, then Alicent should recognize the signs that she is overstimulated before anyone else does. Alicent should understand that Helaena shouldn't be forced into conventional courtly behavior. She should know when Helaena is frightened, when she needs silence, or when she is trying to communicate something that cannot be articulated conventionally. Because Alicent is herself a woman that's spent her life being forced to perform a role, she should understand - more than anyone else - why Helaena would be uncomfortable with the role imposed upon her. Their relationship could've been beautiful! I'm mad now, but let's keep going.

Aegon

Aegon is, perhaps, the biggest issue I have with House of the Dragon's writing choices regarding Alicent's parenting. The show's Aegon feels like a collection of all the reasons someone deserves to lose. Aegon did not need to be a rapist to be a broken man; the choice to make him one irreparably damaged his character, transforming a potentially rich exploration of duty and self-destruction into a shallow caricature of villainy. Instead of being driven by cruelty and excess, Aegon's central flaw should stem from an ingrained, almost suffocating love for his family. His core complex should be rooted in the realization that his very existence is a political catalyst, leading him to the conclusion that he must become a king he never wanted to be to ensure his loved ones survive the coming war. This internal martyrdom offers a far more devastating and narratively fulfilling crux than mere depravity, as Aegon's weight of expectation should originate from the pressure exerted onto him by Otto Hightower. Otto serves as the architect of Aegon's deepest anxieties, weaponizing the boy's natural affection for his siblings and mother by constantly whispering that failure to ascend the throne means their inevitable execution (he's not wrong, but could have gone about it in a much better manner). This dynamic would end up breeding an inferiority complex within Aegon; he feels he is never enough for the realm, but feels he must carry it anyway.

Conversely, Alicent should stand in stark contrast to her father, serving as Aegon's emotional anchor and the sole reason he retains his innate goodness. The bond between a mother and her firstborn often serves as the emotional bedrock of a child's development. Alicent, recognizing the burdens placed upon her son, would pour her empathy and protective instincts into shielding his spirit and validating his fears while trying to preserve his humanity. Her unconditional love creates a heartbreaking dichotomy: Aegon is, fundamentally, a good young man (nurtured by an exceptional mother) who is nevertheless being slowly crushed by the machinations of his grandsire and the inescapable gravity of his royal name. Writing Aegon from this lens changes him from a reviled antagonist into a, gasp, real human being - one who sacrifices his own happiness on the altar of familial duty.

When structuring each of these character arcs, the tension lies not in a protagonist's evil actions, but in the slow erosion of a good person forced into an impossible mold (like what HotD has done with Rhaenyra in Season 3, which I enjoy). Aegon should've been the embodiment of Alicent's insecurity and sense of duty, Helaena her sensitivity, Aemond her sense of duty made militaristic, and Daeron her courtesy/conscientiousness. Instead, HotD fashions them into four separate explanations for why Alicent failed as a mother and why she deserves the abuse she suffers throughout the Dance of the Dragons.

Rhaenyra's children should believe they deserve, while Alicent's children should believe they owe.

Rhaenyra's children should've had difficulty recognizing limits, while Alicent's children should've had difficulty setting their own.

Conclusion

There you go! Problem fixed. Every child of the Dance becomes a product of his or her family, which is far more compelling than dividing the children into "Rhaenyra's good kids" and "Alicent's bad kids".

The Rhaenyra of Season 1 shouldn't have naturally become an emotionally enlightened mother out of nowhere, she should remain Rhaenyra. Her love should be real, but so should her selfishness. Her protectiveness should be real, but so should her entitlement.

Likewise, Alicent should not become a terrible mother simply because the writers need her to. Alicent's defining characteristic is that she cares. She cares too much about duty, too much about appearances, too much about consequences, too much about what other people expect. She should be the kind of mother who writes Daeron letters because she cannot bear that her son is growing up away from her.

Rhaenyra and Alicent should not be opposites because one is a "good" parent and the other is a "bad" parent, they should be opposites because they produce different iterations of the damage inflicted upon them.

reddit.com
u/Blackfiredragon22 — 1 month ago
▲ 3 r/HouseOfTheDragon+1 crossposts

What do you think of House of the Dragon changing the First Battle of Tumbleton so that the Greens are defending the town while the Blacks are the attacking force?

In Fire & Blood, the battle is essentially the opposite: Tumbleton is held by the Blacks before Hugh and Ulf betray them from within, allowing the Green army to capture the town. The betrayal itself is the turning point rather than an assault by the Black host.

Do you prefer the show's inversion of the battle, or do you think the book version works better? Which approach creates stronger character moments and consequences?

reddit.com
u/DogeABanana — 2 months ago

The fact we've reached a point where Cersei Lannister is a better mother than Alicent…

…abhors me!

Look, I've loved Alicent Hightower since the start of HotD, but especially came around to her once she was married off to Viserys, becoming a woman you want to root for. In Season 1 (at least up until Episode 8), Alicent was the underdog of the Dance that grew into her power and waged war to defend her children (all of them, not just Helaena). In Episodes 8 and 9, when she misunderstood Viserys's final words/The Song of Ice and Fire, I thought there might've been some hope in her; it's only one change to make her more sympathetic, and since she was the most sympathetic character for me at the time, I was willing to overlook the reasoning behind her push for war.

In Season 2, I remained by her side throughout the Dance - after all, just look at her backstory! - but my faith in Alicent began to wane the moment she refused to comfort a grieving Aegon, allowed Rhaenyra out of the Sept alive (her grandchild was just MURDERED by Rhaenyra's husband, hello?), was given the chance to council Aegon and instead chose to reprimand him, and later, signed her sons's death warrants on Dragonstone. However, even then, I felt as though - from Alicent's perspective, at least - the deal made enough sense. I briefly hoped, at first, it was a ploy of some sort or would be recontextualized as one given the fandom's backlash to that choice, but any and all hopes of mine were dispelled within the first two episodes of Season 3 (really only the final two of last season). Speaking of, I found the whole Jasper Wylde plot to be horribly written and another manufactured way to punish Alicent for being Team Green (gods forbid a woman other than Rhaenyra is traumatized and wages war to save her children!).

Still, I found myself leaning toward/siding with Alicent - even when knowing her book counterpart would've been SO much better as a character. I didn't think she was completely butchered yet, and had only become a cripple! I also thought the fandom's anger at Alicent was unjustified when evil people such as Daemon roamed Westeros; wishing death upon Alicent was also too far for me. The whole "I wanted him to be a Hightower" scene in Episode 4 regarding Daeron made me upset with her (and also contradicted Alicent's reasoning for marrying Aegon and Helaena as revealed in Episode 6), but once Rhaenyra ordered Alicent to Harrenhal, I thought she wouldn't be able to go through with killing Aemond (plus, her scene with Helaena about walking in the sun gave me some small hope for Alicent as a mother). There was a slim chance she could return to being the vengeful Driftmark/Book Alicent Hightower we all knew her to be, correct?

How wrong I was.

Giving Aemond "spiced wine" and actually following through on Rhaenyra's orders, Alicent? I know it seems ridiculous for this to be my breaking point when so much has already been done to destroy Alicent's character (there have been many moments before this one where I've thought Alicent was in the wrong or was being a terrible mother), but actually following through with killing your son is something else entirely. At first, I thought Alicent would give up and admit to Aemond her surrender to the Blacks (after all, she folded when Rhaenyra gave her those "icy glares"), but to kill your child and have the audacity to stumble away sobbing and shaking? What the fuck?

Alicent, I've been disappointed in you before (the Green Council, the power imbalance with Criston Cole, forcing Helaena to attend Jaehaerys's funeral, not comforting a grieving Aegon, allowing Rhaenyra to leave the Sept, etc) but have always found ways to justify your actions. Now, you have reached the point of no return! Olivia Cooke, I'm so sorry for this humiliation ritual you're going through, but at least you're being paid top dollar.

R.I.P. what used to be my favorite character (and the favorite of many others, no doubt), Alicent Hightower - a delayed yet necessary funeral.

P.S: I still think Olivia Cooke is gorgeous, both inside and out, and the fandom hating on her appearance - during this season especially - has been terrible. Additionally, Olivia's acting has been phenomenal in the few good scenes we've had with Alicent. There's always a silver lining, I guess.

P.S.S: A young Cersei looking up to/glorifying Book Alicent (many similarities there) was a fun headcanon of mine, but if she found out who the "Real Alicent" was, Cersei would've been pissed!

u/DogeABanana — 2 months ago

Baela and Rhaena in their book-accurate attire (and updated hairstyles)!

Hello!

Above is a proper look at Baela and Rhaena in their book-accurate attire, complete with updated hairstyles that are derived from Black culture. I find that HotD really dropped the ball with their lackluster wigs and watered-down personalities.

For those curious about the process, I did use Al as part of the rendering pipeline, BUT this isn't an amalgamation; every element was intentionally crafted.

I started by designing the outfits myself in Procreate to ensure they matched any and all Fire & Blood characterization. I also sourced the hairstyles and provided the base background. From there, I used Al to render the textures based on my inputs, then took the piece into Photoshop to integrate the likenesses of the actors and polish the final details. I know Al in art can be a contentious topic, but my goal was - and still is - to use it strictly as a tool to visualize my own designs while honoring the incredible actors (Bethany Antonia and Phoebe Campbell) that play the Targaryen twins. Love went into giving these characters the image they deserve.

Rant aside, I really enjoyed putting this together! Are there any other characters from HotD you'd like to see "book-accurified" next?

u/DogeABanana — 3 months ago
▲ 2 r/asoiaffanfic+2 crossposts

My Outline for a Rewrite of House of the Dragon - Season 1

Hello there!

This is a personal project I've been outlining for a while now. I wanted to overhaul the focus, pacing, and structural timeline of House of the Dragon's first season, giving the narrative room to breathe and treating the political maneuvering with the slow, palpable tension it deserves - akin to S1-4 of Game of Thrones or The Crown.

For context, the first four episodes in this timeline are the exact episodes same as the original series, with the only changes being a color grade to enhance the visual atmosphere. The active rewrite begins with Season 1 Episode 5.

Here is the re-developed timeline I am working with:

Episode 1 - 106 AC.
Episode 2 - 106 AC.
Aegon II is born - 107 AC.
Episode 3 - 109 AC.
Helaena is born in 109 AC.
Episode 4 - 110 AC.
Episode 5 - 110 AC.
Episode 6 - 110 AC.
Aemond is born in 110 AC.
Episode 7 - 110 AC.
Episode 8 - 110 AC.
Jacaerys is born in 110 AC.
Lucerys is born in 112 AC.
Baela and Rhaena are born in 112 AC.
Episode 9 - 112 AC.
Episode 10 - 112 AC.

Episode 1 - "The Song of Ice and Fire" (same as "The Heirs of the Dragon", retitled and color graded)

Viserys celebrates the birth of his long-awaited son.
Rhaenyra welcomes her uncle, Daemon, back to the Red Keep.

Episode 2 - "The Rogue Prince" (same as "The Rogue Prince", color graded)

Viserys faces mounting pressure to remarry.
Rhaenyra straddles the spectrum between affection and expectation.
Daemon tempts Otto with a stolen dragon egg.

Episode 3 - "Second of His Name" (same as "Second of His Name", color graded)

Viserys and Alicent commemorate Aegon's second nameday.
Rhaenyra faces the imminent prospect of marriage.
Daemon and Corlys wage a war for the Stepstones.

Episode 4 - "The Street of Silk" (same as "King of the Narrow Sea", retitled and color graded)

A night in King's Landing blurs Rhaenyra's distinction between duty and desire.
Alicent jeopardizes her future at court.
Otto is fired.

Episode 5 - "By All Rights" (RW begins!)

Viserys formally travels to Driftmark to reconcile the festering rift with House Velaryon, seeking a marriage pact between Rhaenyra and Laenor to mend the realm.
The Velaryon family dynamic is explored in rich detail, showcasing Corlys's ambition clashing with Rhaenys's pragmatic foresight regarding the danger of placing Laenor in the line of succession.
Rhaenyra's friendship with Laena deepens significantly during this visit, blossoming into a bond reminiscent of Rhaenyra's old relationship with Alicent.
Laena, having almost been wed to Viserys at the age of twelve, uses her own experiences to gently guide Rhaenyra toward sympathizing with Alicent's isolated position as a teenage queen.
Rhaenyra and Laena ride Syrax together, showcasing the difference between Laena and Alicent and Laena's desire to claim Vhagar. Laena's fascination with dragonlore and Valyrian history sets her up as an ideal match for Daemon, establishing the roots of their future flirtation.
Alicent confronts Otto as he leaves, and Otto delivers to her his "she'll have to put your children to the sword" speech (except this time, it's true). Alicent doesn't believe him, and Otto rides away. However, deep down, Alicent knows there's a possible truth to her father's words.
Alicent, left alone to govern the Red Keep, transitions from a dissociating teenager suffering under marital rape to a mother who slowly beginning to bond with her impressionable children.
Criston suffers a harrowing psychological breakdown beneath the weight of his broken vows, self-harming with a stiff bristle brush in a visceral scene.
Rhaenyra and Laenor reach their "medieval lavender marriage" agreement, and Laenor spends more time with Joffrey Lonmouth (who also interacts with Laena and Rhaenyra, becoming a three-dimensional character).
The Velaryons agree to provide money for the wedding, much to Viserys's pleasure.
In a desperate plea stripped of any naive mentions of "bushels of oranges", Criston begs Rhaenyra on the deck of their departing ship to abandon the suffocating politics of the realm, but she firmly denies him in the closing scene of the episode.

Episode 6 - "We Light the Way"

In the Vale, Daemon confronts his "bronze bitch", Rhea Royce, resulting in her (much better written) murder - a brutal act that does not go unnoticed by her cousin, Gerold Royce, who will come back later in the Dance.
Alicent questions Criston as she did in the original 1x5 upon his return, and Criston confesses to having sex with Rhaenyra. This is the moment Alicent realizes that if Rhaenyra could lie to her about her public sex life, swearing on her deceased mother, then Rhaenyra could easily kill her children. This revelation will have more build-up, with an entire episode passing between the brothel and the wedding.
In King's Landing, resources are scarce due to the Targaryens collecting fish and food from the smallfolk at the docks as a "royal fifth". A younger Hugh Hammer dines at a tavern, overhearing gossip regarding Rhaenyra's marriage.
Given that green pigment is hard to come by in medieval times, Alicent stains a former yellow dress of hers green using an "overdyeing" process - layering blue over the yellow to create a stunning emerald.
The wedding of Rhaenyra and Laenor begins with a grand feast, highlighted by Daemon's return to King's Landing and Alicent's defiant entrance that effectively draws battle lines within the court.
During the wedding feast, Harwin Strong catches Rhaenyra's eye for the first time, planting the seeds for their impending romance.
Joffrey begins making snide remarks to Criston, but Criston does not snap - yet.
The second half of the episode shifts to the massive wedding tourney, a brutal spectacle where simmering tensions finally boil over.
A compromised Criston Cole kills Joffrey Lonmouth during the melee in a blind, devastating rage. Alicent, noting Criston's shattered state, tracks him to his chambers and intervenes just as he is about to commit suicide, saving his life and securing him as her fiercely loyal sworn sword.
Daemon and Laena flirt and share a hidden kiss on the tourney grounds, with Daemon hoping to make Rhaenyra jealous and Laena hoping to escape her upcoming marriage.
Rhaenyra and Laenor are wed hastily following Joffrey's death.

Episode 7 - "When Flowers Bloom"

Roughly six months after the wedding, Aemond has been born.
Rhaenyra and Laenor try to consummate their marriage, but fail. Rhaenyra begins a palpable, slow-burn courtship with Ser Harwin Strong, drawn to his warmth and physical presence as a replacement for Criston.
Alicent brilliantly maneuvers the social chessboard of King's Landing, forming her own formidable court of women - including Jocelyn Redwyne (the "Olenna Tyrell" of the Green faction), Ciera Lannister, Johanna Lannister, and Lynesse Hightower.
On Driftmark, Laena faces a life-altering ultimatum, torn between her father’s expectations to marry the son of the Sealord of Braavos and her lingering desires.
Daemon, living in pseudo-exile on Driftmark with Corlys, actively courts a young Laena, his presence a dark but alluring gravitational pull on her life. Laena tells him they can't "do this" any longer, implying they've started and ended a brief fling between episodes.
To prove his worth and devotion, Daemon executes a daring rescue of the Sealord's son from a cavern occupied by The Cannibal in a major set-piece that wins over Laena's heart. She climbs aboard Caraxes and the pair flies across the Narrow Sea, much to Corlys and Rhaenys's dismay.
The episode beautifully juxtaposes two intimate character arcs: Rhaenyra and Harwin finally consummating their love in the Red Keep, while across the castle, Alicent and Criston bond profoundly over the parenting of the young Aegon, Helaena, and Aemond - slowly becoming a functional family unit.

Episode 8 - "A World Apart"

Daemon and Laena forge a family of their own beneath the unfamiliar, vibrant skies of Essos, exploring unseen fantastical locations, such as Ib, while reveling in their freedom. Daemon helps Laena track Vhagar through the east.
In King's Landing, Alicent's influence reaches new heights as she solidifies her grip on the Small Council and the ladies of the court, transforming into the authoritative Green Queen.
Rhaenyra's first pregnancy "by Laenor" is formally announced to the realm, a political triumph that masks deep personal anxiety. Viserys is overjoyed.
At the climax of the episode, Laena claims the legendary Vhagar, cementing herself as a true power player in the Targaryen dynasty to come.
The episode concludes with a montage featuring Rhaenyra giving birth to a decidedly brown-haired Jacaerys; Alicent immediately takes note of the child's features, and the silent realization passes between the two factions.

Episode 9 - "The Realm's Delight"

A horrific act of violence introduces a brutal Kingsguard who kicks a brothel girl to death at Madam Sylvie's; this man will eventually become the infamous "Blood" of Blood and Cheese. This dispute becomes the episode's major King's Landing political event.
Larys proves his utility to Alicent, helping her uncover the truth about Rhaenyra's indiscretions and bringing the two closer into a twisted web of loyalty.
Alicent engages in a subtle information war with Jasper Wylde, showcasing her political acumen in a tense, The Crown-style battle of wits over court influence.
The radically different ruling styles of Alicent, who relies on duty and alliance-building, and Rhaenyra, who leans on inherent royal authority, become clear this episode.
Rhaenyra begins cultivating her own loyalists, meeting the men and women who will eventually form her Black Council, including Bartimos Celtigar, Gormon Massey, Elinda Massey, and Stephanie Staunton.
In Essos, a pregnant Laena gives birth to her twin daughters, Baela and Rhaena, in a poignant scene that intentionally mirrors Queen Aemma's tragic labor, though Laena survives.

Episode 10 - "His Blood Runs Thick"

A two-year time jump brings the narrative to 112 AC, allowing the political landscape to settle before the impending storm.
Daemon and Laena return briefly to Driftmark to introduce their twin daughters to Corlys and Rhaenys, sparking family tension over legacies and inheritances.
Laenor, spending his time in King's Landing, crosses paths with Qarl Correy, established here as a cunning, money-hungry player of the game - akin to Olyvar in GoT - who manipulates Laenor's feelings for sheer personal gain (don't worry, this will come back in Season 2!).
Alicent's isolation deepens as Viserys blatantly favors Rhaenyra, hardening Alicent's resolve and perfectly shaping her into the fiercely defensive matriarch she will become in Season 2.
Rhaenyra experiences an epiphany regarding the importance Aegon's Dream (I am figuring out the details on how to write this arc).
The season concludes with a cinematic sendoff to our younger cast (Milly Alcock/Emily Carey), closing on a beautifully narrated montage driven by a letter written by Otto Hightower, laying out the chess pieces for the war to come.

A Note on Future Seasons

In an ideal world, Seasons 1 and 2 of this restructured House of the Dragon would have been filmed simultaneously and released in 2022. By dedicating the entire back half of Season 1 to character development, political maneuvering, and slow-burn relationship building, we avoid the narrative rushing through decades of history. It gives us the time to actually breathe, live with these characters, and care about them.

Following this, an 8-year timeskip would lead directly into the Year of the Red Spring for the first five episodes of Season 2, hitting 129 AC for the final five. Season 2 would end explicitly with the "Dance over Storm's End" as the major inciting event, leaving the audience shattered. This allows for a perfect release schedule: Season 3 in 2024, Season 4 in 2026, and the final Season 5 in 2028. You'd get full, 10-episode seasons of Rhaenyra and Aegon operating as powerful, fully realized women vying for control (later Rhaenyra and Aegon), featuring a style that can be binged with the same immersion as the golden era of Game of Thrones.

While I am confident in the structural foundation established above, I recognize that certain episode beats still require deeper scene-level development. For example, noting that "Alicent’s isolation deepens as Viserys blatantly favors Rhaenyra…" establishes a strong thematic arc, but my intention is to map out the precise, scene-by-scene interactions that authentically drive that wedge deeper. This is where I invite this community's collaborative input; I welcome your ideas on how to best expand these character dynamics and flesh out the political maneuvering within the newly afforded space of these episodes. Please share your insights in the comments!

I will be publishing the comprehensive outline for Season 2 in an upcoming companion post. My overarching goal is to finalize and release the complete, polished rewrites for Seasons 1 and 2 by the close of 2026, before shifting my focus to drafting Seasons 3, 4, and 5 throughout 2027 (and possibly 2028). This is an expansive undertaking dedicated to crafting the most emotionally resonant, meticulously paced, and narratively fulfilling adaptation of the House of the Dragon and Fire & Blood narrative possible, and I look forward to your feedback as we bring this definitive vision to the page.

u/DogeABanana — 3 months ago
▲ 5 r/HouseOfTheDragon+1 crossposts

"A Blinding Beacon": My HotD S1:E5 Rewrite Exploring Criston Cole's Mental State and Alicent Hightower's Desolate Despair

"Vows are but breath; it is iron discipline that holds a knight upright when the flesh begs to yield." - Harrold Westerling

Hey there!

I've been working on a screenplay rewrite for Season 1, starting with Episode 5 and focusing on the psychological unraveling of the characters just before the voyage to Driftmark. The show gives us so much incredible drama, but I wanted to explore the quieter moments between the major events, specifically focusing on Criston and Alicent as their respective duties begin to suffocate them.

For example, to better highlight the burden of duty, I focused on Criston's immediate guilt over breaking his vows of chastity. While the Cargyll twins innocently debate footwork and parries (hopefully tying them into later Dance events), Criston is trapped in his own head. We see him taking a stiff-bristled brush to his hands in a washbasin, desperately hoping to scrub away a permanent stain until his skin is raw. Lord Commander Westerling serves as his foil here, recognizing Criston's turmoil and reminding him that the Kingsguard cloak is not a shield for mortal failings, but a "blinding beacon" where every shadow cast is seen by all.

In a similar scene, I wanted to contrast Criston's violent self-disgust with Alicent's depleting submission. While Viserys stares out a rain-slicked window, Alicent packs his trunks. Viserys expresses gratitude, but he is also unable to see to the tolls her servitude demands. The scene culminates with Viserys casually mentioning that Otto will be leaving, with the subtle horror of her father's dismissal shown entirely through Alicent's need to self-soothe by rubbing her late mother's tarnished silver pendant.

Ultimately, I would love to hear your thoughts on this interpretation of the characters and whether you feel this aligns with their breaking points in the middle of Season 1!

TW: Self Harm.

u/DogeABanana — 3 months ago

[FEEDBACK] House of the Dragon S1:E5 Rewrite (Drama/Fantasy) - Looking for thoughts on visual transitions and dialogue subtext!

Hey there!

I'm working on a rewrite of House of the Dragon Season 1, focusing on the immediate aftermath of Season 1 Episode 4 and taking place just before the royal voyage to Driftmark. I'm trying to lean heavily into visual storytelling to convey internal guilt and exhaustion before a single word of meaningful dialogue is spoken. I have a 12-page excerpt and am looking for feedback on a few specific elements.

I am curious to see if the juxtaposition in the opening works for you; if the contrast between Arryk and Erryk Cargyll's casual introduction/banter about swordplay and Criston Cole's silence effectively sets the heavy tone.

I would also appreciate thoughts on the dialogue. I wrote a scene where Harrold Westerling confronts Criston, warning him that the white cloak is a "blinding beacon" rather than a shield against mortal failings. Does this dialogue feel earned, or is it too on-the-nose?

Additionally, I am experimenting with visual match-cuts and need to know if this formatting reads clearly on the page. I attempt to bridge two separate locations using water, specifically transitioning from tears shattering a reflection in a stone washbasin to rainwater distorting a reflection in a windowpane.

Finally, I would love notes on my action line economy. In the King's chambers, I describe Alicent entering like a "specter" and taking inventory of Viserys's trunks with the efficiency of a steward while Viserys is completely blind to her soul-crushing toll. Do my action lines strike the right balance between being evocative and concise?

Any general feedback on pacing and formatting is also greatly appreciated. Thank you!

u/DogeABanana — 3 months ago
▲ 57 r/HouseOfTheDragon+1 crossposts

Season 3 Episode 7's Preview Debunks the Illusion of Rhaenyra's Care for Helaena

It is a frequent talking point within the HotD fandom that Rhaenyra harbors a sisterly affection for Helaena, painting her as a reluctant participant in Team Green. If the preview for Season 3 Episode 7 tells us anything, it is that the dynamic between these two is about to take a dark turn, while completely shattering the illusion that Rhaenyra's actions are driven by compassion.

To understand the severity of Rhaenyra's actions in the preview, we have to look back at what she already knows about her younger sister. In Season 2, following Blood and Cheese, Rhaenyra shouted, "That I would inflict such a thing on Helaena, of all people." This line confirms that Rhaenyra is, at the very LEAST, aware of Helaena's gentle nature, her moral character, and her profound love for her children (children Daemon targeted, resulting in Jaehaerys's death).

Furthermore, Alicent explicitly reminds Rhaenyra this week, "You know what she is. She is fragile; you cannot confine her," regarding Helaena. Rhaenyra is aware of her half-sister's fragility and her unique way of processing the world (what we would recognize today as neurodivergence), and has been for quite some time. Despite this inherent innocence, Rhaenyra has never once spoken to Helaena or shown her an ounce of genuine care throughout the entire series.

Now, look at the context of Episode 6 and how it sets up the moment we see in the Episode 7 trailer. Rhaenyra is getting desperate. She was recently cut by the Iron Throne (a universal sign of unworthiness to rule) and she is feeling the weight of her overwhelming campaign. In her desperation, she learns two massive pieces of leverage from Alicent: Helaena is pregnant with Aegon's heir, and Helaena is a Dragon Dreamer.

With Alicent conveniently sent away on a suicide mission to betray Aemond (coherent writing has left the building and burned it down) under Rhaenyra's promise that she will keep watch over Helaena, Helaena is left entirely isolated and defenseless. Rhaenyra can now speak to/visit her half-sister without any pushback, and she (from what we can imply) utilizes this window of opportunity.

This brings us to the preview clip, where an unraveling Rhaenyra grasps Helaena's arm in her bed and shouts at her.

"You may refuse me as your sister, but I may compel you as your queen!"

We already know from Episode 6 that Helaena has been resorting to self-harm, pricking herself with knitting needles to cope with her confinement and (now complete) separation from Jaehaera. Rhaenyra is fully aware that Helaena is a good person who is actively suffering, yet she exploits her psychological condition anyway. She doesn't approach Helaena as a sister, either, instead cornering her out of desperation.

This framing leads to a theory I have regarding how this plot might play out and how it could cause Helaena's tragic end. In Episode 6, Rhaenyra explicitly states, "If she is known to carry Aegon's heir, I will be forced to do what you fear." What if Rhaenyra, in her escalating ruthlessness, decides to give Helaena moon tea? Because Helaena is already showing, a forced abortifacient at this stage would be lethal to either the baby, the mother, or both. It could force Helaena into early labor, delivering Maelor as a preemie so Rhaenyra can have him killed to better secure her reign.

From a viewer's perspective, this sequence pushes Rhaenyra into significantly darker moral territory. While the narrative framing may attempt to present her coercion of Helaena as a tragic necessity or a heavy burden she believes she must bear, the established subtext actively complicates said interpretation. If the series attempts to pivot and present Rhaenyra as oblivious to Helaena's distress - or tries to paint her actions in this scene as the right thing to do - it would create another notable inconsistency within the script. Dialogue throughout Epiosde 6 explicitly establishes that Rhaenyra knows of her sister's profound vulnerabilities. Consequently, her decision to actively exploit those weaknesses for political leverage demonstrates a deliberate moral compromise (one that knowingly risks Helaena's well-being and survival for the sake of a crown Rhaenyra is unsure she can hold).

That being said, I'm curious to hear how others are interpreting this direction! Does this major shift in Rhaenyra's character feel like a natural progression of her arc, or does it further hammer home missteps in the show's pacing and tone? More importantly, how do you think this new dynamic will ultimately affect Helaena's fate moving forward? I'd love to read your thoughts and character analyses (analysi?).

u/DogeABanana — 3 months ago
▲ 1.2k r/HouseOfTheDragon+2 crossposts

How do you think Aemma would've reacted to Viserys marrying Alicent?

Obviously, Viserys wouldn't have married Alicent (or anyone else, for that matter) if Aemma hadn't been killed in childbirth, but say she's looking on from the afterlife; given what we know about her character, what would be her reaction?

Aemma is gentle, compassionate, politically aware, and above all, exhausted. Her defining trait is her endurance, after all. By the time she dies, Aemma's spent years being treated less as a queen than as a means of producing a son. She jokes bitterly to Rhaenyra that "the childbed is our battlefield", but it isn't really a joke; she knows exactly what her life has become. When Viserys tells her he believes this child will be his son, Aemma doesn't seem hopeful so much as resigned. During Baelon's birth, without her knowledge or consent, Viserys chooses to sacrifice Aemma in pursuit of his dream.

Because of that, I don't think Aemma's reaction to Alicent would be remotely close to resentment or jealousy. If anything, Alicent's situation would probably be painfully familiar to Aemma herself.

Alicent is a teenage girl maneuvered into marriage by her father, expected to comfort a grieving king, repeatedly subjected to unwanted sex for the sake of producing heirs, isolated from genuine companionship, and expected to smile through it all because it's her duty. We even see Viserys dismiss her concerns, laugh off her attempts to host, and take her physical/emotional labor for granted. Sound familiar?

It's also easy to forget that, before politics poisoned everything, Aemma certainly knew Alicent as Rhaenyra's dearest friend. Alicent spent years at court alongside the princess, so it's hard to imagine Rhaenyra not sharing about/bringing around the girl she was inseparable from. Aemma would have seen firsthand how much comfort and companionship Alicent brought her daughter, and there's nothing in Aemma's characterization to suggest she would've harbored any ill will toward her. Given Aemma's intelligence and experience at court, she also may have had a healthy skepticism of Otto's ambitions. Whether she knew the full extent of his calculations is impossible to say, but she would've almost certainly understood that daughters of great houses rarely possess freedom over their futures. If anything, she would have recognized Alicent as another girl being shaped by the expectations and ambitions of the men around her, long before Alicent ever became a queen herself.

However, that doesn't necessarily mean Aemma would side with the Greens. Her love for Rhaenyra is undeniable, as Rhaenyra was her only child who survived to adulthood. There's every indication Aemma desperately wanted her daughter to have a life with more agency than she herself ever had. Seeing Rhaenyra named heir would likely fill her with pride, especially in a society that constantly told women they existed only to produce male successors - but I also don't think she'd share Rhaenyra’s tendency to reduce Alicent to an obstacle. Aemma knew what patriarchal expectations did to women, and would most likely recognize that Alicent is - in many ways - another victim of the same system that killed her.

In a tragic sense, Viserys creates the conflict between them.
By marrying Alicent almost immediately after Aemma's death, he places an enormous burden on a teenage girl. By refusing to clearly reconcile his choice of heir with the expectation of having sons, he creates two competing lines of succession. By avoiding difficult conversations for years, he allows resentment to calcify into hatred. Neither Rhaenyra nor Alicent invented those conditions.

u/DogeABanana — 3 months ago

Hot Take: Both Team Black and Team Green Have Equally Legitimate Claims to the Throne

An aspect that's always fascinated me about the Dance of the Dragons is it's not a story with an objectively "rightful" monarch. I think George R. R. Martin intentionally constructed a succession crisis where both sides are operating under different interpretations of legitimacy. The Seven Kingdoms/Westeros itself never bothered establishing a single, universally accepted answer to the question of succession.

Team Black's argument is that Viserys publicly named Rhaenyra Princess of Dragonstone, required the great lords of the realm to swear oaths recognizing her as his heir, reaffirmed that decision for decades despite multiple opportunities to change it, and never revoked those declarations after Aegon was born. In a monarchy, the king is the source of legal authority. If the king cannot determine his own successor, then what does royal authority actually mean? The Blacks argue that the monarch's decree outweighs custom, and that breaking sworn oaths to the named heir undermines loyalty.

The Green argument, however, rests on precedent and is equally as compelling. The Great Council of 101 AC overwhelmingly favored Viserys over Rhaenys (or Laenor in the books) because the realm chose to pass over the female line in favor of the nearest male heir. Whether or not people agree with that decision morally is almost beside the point; the Council created the strongest legal precedent Westeros had ever seen for determining succession. Every lord in the realm knew that precedent. Under the customs that governed a feudal monarchy, Viserys's eldest legitimate son would naturally inherit before his daughter. Aegon's claim to the Iron Throne isn't simply because he's man, but because every inheritance dispute in the Seven Kingdoms is decided by custom and precedent rather than the personal wishes of the previous ruler. If a ruler is allowed to appoint anyone as heir, you wind up with another Maegor the Cruel. The Greens are defending what they believe the law already is.

Because of this, it is incredibly frustrating to see the Dance reduced to a modern political binary, where the Black claim is dismissed as a simple feminist parable and the Green claim is condemned as straightforward misogyny. While Westeros is undeniably a patriarchal society, mapping contemporary culture wars onto Rhaenyra and Aegon's conflict completely misunderstands the story.

Team Black, for instance, being reduced to a progressive movement fighting to break the glass ceiling severely undercuts the political philosophy driving Rhaenyra's supporters. The Blacks weren't fighting for gender equality whatsoever; they were defending the authority of the Crown and the sanctity of a sworn word. Their foundation rested on the undeniable right of the King to name his successor and the sacred oaths the lords of Westeros swore to uphold that choice.

Conversely, Team Green wasn't an alliance of prejudiced lords rallying to keep a woman off the throne; they were rallying to protect an established legal order. In a feudal society, male-preference inheritance was the mechanism that kept power stable across generations. To the Greens, upholding the male line wasn't really about Aegon's gender, but honoring the binding precedent of the Great Council of 101 AC. They believed that maintaining this constitutional consistency was the only way to prevent a succession crisis from tearing the realm apart, prioritizing the rule of law over the whims of a single monarch.

This is where the debate becomes so interesting to me. Was the Great Council establishing binding constitutional precedent for all future successions, or was it simply resolving one specific dispute? Could Viserys legally overturn precedent through royal decree, or was even the king constrained by customs that existed above his personal wishes? Westeros never provides a definitive answer because, frankly, medieval kingdoms often didn't have one. Succession crises throughout history were frequently decided by competing legal interpretations rather than clear-cut rules.

This is also why I think throwing around the word "usurper" is missing the point (and why I wish House of the Dragon used that term less). A usurper is someone who seizes power without a legitimate claim. The entire reason the Dance is debated over 300 years later - both in-universe and by fans - is because both Rhaenyra and Aegon had legitimate claims rooted in different legal principles. Calling Rhaenyra "just a usurper" ignores that she was the king's publicly proclaimed heir and not once disinherited. Calling Aegon "just a usurper" ignores the immense weight of centuries of inheritance custom that kept the realm in balance and the precedent of the Great Council. If either claim were as obviously illegitimate as some fans insist, there wouldn't have been a civil war that split nearly every great house in Westeros down the middle.

That's why I've never liked reducing the Dance to "Rhaenyra is the rightful queen" or "Aegon is the one true king" as though either statement is self-evident. Both claims rest on legitimate legal principles that happen to collide. If you prioritize loyalty and the king's explicit designation of his heir, Rhaenyra's claim is persuasive. If you prioritize precedent, customary law, and the expectations established by the Great Council, Aegon's claim is equally as persuasive.

To me, that's precisely what makes the Dance of the Dragons such well-written fiction. It's not good versus evil, nor is it usurper versus rightful heir. Both sides believed they were defending the order of Westeros. Neither claim is so airtight that it completely invalidates the other, and because neither principle clearly superseded the other, the realm answered the question the only way medieval kingdoms often did: with civil war.

reddit.com
u/DogeABanana — 3 months ago
▲ 43 r/HouseOfTheDragon+1 crossposts

Hot Take: Both Team Black and Team Green Have Equally Legitimate Claims to the Throne

An aspect that's always fascinated me about the Dance of the Dragons is it's not a story with an objectively "rightful" monarch. I think George R. R. Martin intentionally constructed a succession crisis where both sides are operating under different interpretations of legitimacy. The Seven Kingdoms/Westeros itself never bothered establishing a single, universally accepted answer to the question of succession.

Team Black's argument is that Viserys publicly named Rhaenyra Princess of Dragonstone, required the great lords of the realm to swear oaths recognizing her as his heir, reaffirmed that decision for decades despite multiple opportunities to change it, and never revoked those declarations after Aegon was born. In a monarchy, the king is the source of legal authority. If the king cannot determine his own successor, then what does royal authority actually mean? The Blacks argue that the monarch's decree outweighs custom, and that breaking sworn oaths to the named heir undermines loyalty.

The Green argument, however, rests on precedent and is equally as compelling. The Great Council of 101 AC overwhelmingly favored Viserys over Rhaenys (or Laenor in the books) because the realm chose to pass over the female line in favor of the nearest male heir. Whether or not people agree with that decision morally is almost beside the point; the Council created the strongest legal precedent Westeros had ever seen for determining succession. Every lord in the realm knew that precedent. Under the customs that governed a feudal monarchy, Viserys's eldest legitimate son would naturally inherit before his daughter. Aegon's claim to the Iron Throne isn't simply because he's man, but because every inheritance dispute in the Seven Kingdoms is decided by custom and precedent rather than the personal wishes of the previous ruler. If a ruler is allowed to appoint anyone as heir, you wind up with another Maegor the Cruel. The Greens are defending what they believe the law already is.

Because of this, it is incredibly frustrating to see the Dance reduced to a modern political binary, where the Black claim is dismissed as a simple feminist parable and the Green claim is condemned as straightforward misogyny. While Westeros is undeniably a patriarchal society, mapping contemporary culture wars onto Rhaenyra and Aegon's conflict completely misunderstands the story.

Team Black, for instance, being reduced to a progressive movement fighting to break the glass ceiling severely undercuts the political philosophy driving Rhaenyra's supporters. The Blacks weren't fighting for gender equality whatsoever; they were defending the authority of the Crown and the sanctity of a sworn word. Their foundation rested on the undeniable right of the King to name his successor and the sacred oaths the lords of Westeros swore to uphold that choice.

Conversely, Team Green wasn't an alliance of prejudiced lords rallying to keep a woman off the throne; they were rallying to protect an established legal order. In a feudal society, male-preference inheritance was the mechanism that kept power stable across generations. To the Greens, upholding the male line wasn't really about Aegon's gender, but honoring the binding precedent of the Great Council of 101 AC. They believed that maintaining this constitutional consistency was the only way to prevent a succession crisis from tearing the realm apart, prioritizing the rule of law over the whims of a single monarch.

This is where the debate becomes so interesting to me. Was the Great Council establishing binding constitutional precedent for all future successions, or was it simply resolving one specific dispute? Could Viserys legally overturn precedent through royal decree, or was even the king constrained by customs that existed above his personal wishes? Westeros never provides a definitive answer because, frankly, medieval kingdoms often didn't have one. Succession crises throughout history were frequently decided by competing legal interpretations rather than clear-cut rules.

This is also why I think throwing around the word "usurper" is missing the point (and why I wish House of the Dragon used that term less). A usurper is someone who seizes power without a legitimate claim. The entire reason the Dance is debated over 300 years later - both in-universe and by fans - is because both Rhaenyra and Aegon had legitimate claims rooted in different legal principles. Calling Rhaenyra "just a usurper" ignores that she was the king's publicly proclaimed heir and not once disinherited. Calling Aegon "just a usurper" ignores the immense weight of centuries of inheritance custom that kept the realm in balance and the precedent of the Great Council. If either claim were as obviously illegitimate as some fans insist, there wouldn't have been a civil war that split nearly every great house in Westeros down the middle.

That's why I've never liked reducing the Dance to "Rhaenyra is the rightful queen" or "Aegon is the one true king" as though either statement is self-evident. Both claims rest on legitimate legal principles that happen to collide. If you prioritize loyalty and the king's explicit designation of his heir, Rhaenyra's claim is persuasive. If you prioritize precedent, customary law, and the expectations established by the Great Council, Aegon's claim is equally as persuasive.

To me, that's precisely what makes the Dance of the Dragons such well-written fiction. It's not good versus evil, nor is it usurper versus rightful heir. Both sides believed they were defending the order of Westeros. Neither claim is so airtight that it completely invalidates the other, and because neither principle clearly superseded the other, the realm answered the question the only way medieval kingdoms often did: with civil war.

reddit.com
u/DogeABanana — 3 months ago
▲ 14 r/TheBlacksandTheGreens+1 crossposts

The Real Housewives of Westeros (120)

The Iron Throne isn't the only seat in the realm worth fighting for!

Set during the Year of the Red Spring, 120 AC, "The Real Housewives of Westeros" follows nine influential women as they navigate politics, family rivalries, forbidden romances, ancient grudges, and the impossible expectations of nobility.

(Artists: DogeABanana, PicsArt, House of the Dragon Cast)

u/DogeABanana — 3 months ago
▲ 20 r/HouseOfTheDragon+1 crossposts

A Tale of Two Targaryens: Why Does Rhaena Receive More Hate for One Mistake Than Rhaenyra Ever Did?

The reaction to Rhaena this week has become one of the most fascinating examples of fandom hypocrisy I've seen in House of the Dragon.

To be clear, this isn't about arguing that Rhaena made the "correct" decision; she didn't. She made a reckless choice that had consequences. What I find impossible to ignore, however, is how dramatically the standards change depending on which Team Black character we're talking about.

For years, a significant portion of Team Black has defended virtually every controversial decision Rhaenyra has ever made. The arguments are familiar: she was young, she was under immense pressure, she was trapped by a patriarchal society, she was asserting her agency, she wasn't perfect, she was human, she deserved grace, and hindsight is easy. Whether you agree with those defenses or not, they've been consistently invoked to explain why Rhaenyra shouldn't be judged solely by the outcomes of her choices, while Rhaena - who is younger than Rhaenyra was during many of those mistakes - is suddenly afforded none of that nuance.

Instead, she's described as selfish, arrogant, incompetent, cowardly, responsible for Jace's death, responsible for abandoning her brothers, responsible for military losses, and in some discussions, practically responsible for the entire collapse of Team Black's position. The irony is, to say the least, difficult to miss.

One of Rhaenyra's defining themes is rejecting the role Westeros assigned to her. Team Black has celebrated that for years. They argue that sometimes breaking convention is necessary to seize power and challenge a system, but when Rhaena attempts something equally rooted in agency (i.e, claiming a wild dragon despite the danger), suddenly taking initiative becomes selfish ambition.

You cannot spend years celebrating one Targaryen woman for refusing to stay within the limits others placed on her while condemning another Targaryen girl for refusing to accept that she should remain dragonless forever, as I've expressed in the images above.

Again, that doesn't mean Rhaena's decision to bring Sheepstealer into battle was wise, but the reasoning being used to judge her often contradicts the reasoning previously used to defend Rhaenyra.

I also can't help but wonder how this same discourse would look if Fire & Blood's version of events were adapted more directly. Book Rhaenyra's treatment of Nettles is horrible. She views Nettles through an explicitly racial lens, accuses her without proof, describes her in dehumanizing terms, and orders her execution. Whether one interprets that as jealousy, paranoia, prejudice, or the psychological deterioration brought on by war, it is unquestionably a far harsher moral failing than anything Rhaena has done in the show, yet I suspect many of the same voices who have declared Rhaena irredeemable would devote considerably more energy to contextualizing Book Rhaenyra than they are willing to extend to a sixteen-year-old girl whose mistake, however catastrophic, was rooted in insecurity and strengthening her family's position.

Another thing that's bothered me is how quickly so much of the fandom reduced Jace's death to being solely "Rhaena's fault."

Wars are chaotic! Characters make independent decisions. Dragons are unpredictable. However poor of a decision, Jace chose to lock his mother away and fight. None of this exists in a vacuum, so saying Rhaena bears some responsibility because her absence had consequences is one thing; saying she "caused Jace's death" as though every other variable suddenly disappears is an incredibly reductive reading of a story that constantly emphasizes the chaos and unpredictability of war.

Then, of course, there's the treatment of Phoebe Campbell, Rhaena's actor. Criticizing a performance is perfectly fair, even if I think the performance is great and you don't. That's part of discussing television. However, the personal attacks on Phoebe Campbell have become bizarre. I've seen people accuse Phoebe of "ruining" Rhaena, implying they're intentionally sabotaging Team Black, and generally direct an astonishing amount of hostility toward an actor for portraying a fictional sixteen-year-old making bad decisions. Actors are not their characters!

More broadly, this feels symptomatic of a trend within parts of the fandom. Nuance often seems to disappear the moment it complicates Rhaenyra's position. Take Alicent in the first half of Season 1. Even many viewers who ultimately support Team Black acknowledge that she is written as a profoundly sympathetic character: a teenager pressured by her father, isolated from her closest friend, married to a man decades older, repeatedly expected to perform marital duties she had no meaningful ability to refuse, and burdened with responsibilities she never chose. None of that requires anyone to dislike Rhaenyra. Both characters can be victims of the world they inhabit, but discussions sometimes flatten that complexity by treating every conflict as though one side must be morally spotless for the other to be sympathetic. For example, I've seen many misread the brothel situation in 1x4 as Alicent having a crush on Daemon and being cripplingly bitter rather than being someone who holds duty in a high regard.

The same pattern appears elsewhere. Suggesting that Rhaenyra's decision to present her Strong sons as legitimate had enormous political consequences is sometimes treated as if it were an attack on her character rather than a blatant fact about the story. One can simultaneously believe that Westerosi inheritance laws are unjust and still recognize that knowingly placing obvious questions of legitimacy at the center of a succession dispute was politically destabilizing. Likewise, acknowledging why Corlys would want the Velaryon bloodline preserved through legitimate descendants is not automatically equivalent to endorsing every patriarchal custom in Westeros. Fiction often becomes richer when we're willing to separate understanding a character's motivations from endorsing them.

Perhaps what surprises me most is how quickly parts of Team Black turned on Rhaena at all. She's not a traitor, a usurper, or anything of that sort, nor was she acting maliciously. She wasn't hoping to undermine Rhaenyra, but rather (recklessly) strengthen Team Black by claiming one of the most powerful dragons in Westeros. Her intentions were aligned with the very side that's now treating her as if she's irredeemable.

When Rhaenyra makes a mistake, many fans emphasize context over consequence.

When Rhaena makes a mistake, many of those same fans emphasize consequence while discarding context entirely.

Ultimately, I think House of the Dragon has inherited some of the same fandom dynamics that surrounded Game of Thrones. Many viewers wanted another central Targaryen heroine to champion after Daenerys, but Rhaenyra was never a second Daenerys, nor was she written as an uncomplicated hero. Like Daemon, Alicent, Aegon, Rhaena, and nearly everyone else in this story, she is intentionally flawed. George R. R. Martin's world is built on moral ambiguity, competing loyalties, and characters whose virtues and failings coexist. When fandom discourse begins treating one character as beyond meaningful criticism while another becomes a convenient vessel for collective blame, I think we're moving away from what makes this story so compelling in the first place.

You don't have to like Rhaena and you don't have to excuse what she did to acknowledge that if we're going to analyze these characters seriously, we should strive to apply the same judgement across the board instead of adjusting it depending on whether the character happens to be one of our favorites.

u/DogeABanana — 3 months ago
▲ 19 r/HouseOfTheDragon+1 crossposts

Daemon's Relationships and the Cycle of Abuse, Grooming, and Power

Preface

The Dance of the Dragons is not a story about one side being good and the other side being evil. In my eyes, that's what makes it so compelling. Every faction is filled with people who are sympathetic, cruel, justified, hypocritical, and flawed.

Criticizing Daemon Targaryen's relationships means acknowledging that a character can be compelling, charismatic, and entertaining while also being an unhealthy person.

NOTE: While I will be looking into Daemon, the bulk of this post is about the people he has relationships/dynamics with (structured in chronological order).

Daemon and Viserys: Brotherly Love

Unlike many of Daemon's relationships, his dynamic with Viserys is not built around romance or attraction, but brotherly love.

Daemon wants unconditional love without accepting accountability. Daemon spends much of his life angry that Viserys does not choose him. He wants to be seen as his brother's equal: the warrior, the heir, the dragon that Viserys should rely upon - but whenever Viserys tries to hold him accountable, Daemon interprets it as rejection.

When Viserys removes him as heir, Daemon does not reflect on why his actions caused such a response. Instead, he sees it as betrayal. When Viserys criticizes him, Daemon perceives it as abandonment. When Viserys chooses duty over him, Daemon feels replaced.

The irony is that Viserys is perhaps the only person who consistently sees both sides of Daemon. He knows Daemon is brave, intelligent, and capable. He also knows that Daemon is reckless, cruel, and ruled by his own impulses.

Their relationship is almost like that of a father and son rather than brothers. Viserys repeatedly forgives Daemon, repeatedly gives him chances, and repeatedly hopes that love will make him change, but Daemon never fully learns the lesson.

The scene in Episode 4 where Daemon returns after years away and embraces Viserys proved to me that Daemon loves his brother, but love is not enough.

Daemon can love someone and still hurt them; such is his life.

Daemon and Mysaria: Affection Without Respect

Daemon and Mysaria is another fascinating example of his emotional limitations. Mysaria is perhaps one of the few people who understands Daemon without worshipping him. She sees the lonely, insecure man underneath the arrogance.

However, Daemon repeatedly fails her.

The dragon egg incident is one of the clearest examples. Daemon uses Mysaria in a political stunt designed to provoke Viserys and Otto, but he never fully considers the consequences for her.

For Daemon, it is a game.

For Mysaria, it is her life. She is not a noblewoman protected by a family name, so she is put in immediate danger. When she expresses fear and frustration, he struggles to understand why.

Once again, Daemon is focused on what he wants rather than what the person beside him needs. Affection without respect is not enough.

Daemon and Rhaenyra: Projection vs. Possession

One of the most fascinating things about the "Daemon x Rhaenyra" fandom (Daemyra) is how many people seem genuinely shocked whenever Daemon behaves exactly like Daemon. Every time he crosses a line, there is a wave of people claiming that it is "character assassination," that the writers "don't understand him," or that Daemon would never hurt Rhaenyra, but that interpretation requires ignoring almost everything we are shown about Daemon.

He and Rhaenyra are an unhealthy relationship built on a foundation of power imbalance, emotional manipulation, and repeated patterns of violence. The fact that they have chemistry does not make their relationship healthy. The fact that they love each other does not erase the fact that Daemon has repeatedly shown himself capable of hurting the people closest to him. The uncomfortable truth is that Daemon's relationship with Rhaenyra begins with grooming.

Daemon Groomed Rhaenyra

A lot of fans become uncomfortable when the word "grooming" is brought up because they associate it with modern terminology. However, a lack of vocabulary in Westeros does not mean the behavior does not exist. Harmful dynamics existed long before society developed words to describe them.

Daemon is an adult man who deliberately cultivates an intimate bond with his teenage niece while she is still a child (by Westerosi standards, no less). He gives her gifts, isolates her from others through their shared use of High Valyrian, and creates a private world between them where he is positioned as someone who understands her better than anyone else. In Episode 1 alone, we can see an older man establishing emotional intimacy with a young girl who looks up to him.

The brothel scene in Episode 4 makes this even more disturbing.

Rhaenyra leaves the Red Keep wanting freedom. She wants excitement, independence, and the ability to experience the world outside the restrictions placed on her as a princess. Daemon recognizes this vulnerability and exploits it, taking Rhaenyra to a place designed to blur boundaries and expose her to sexual experiences she is not prepared for.

The entire situation is designed around Daemon controlling the circumstances.

Then, when Rhaenyra becomes emotionally vulnerable and the situation becomes real, he abandons her.

Think about that for a second.

Daemon leaves his teenage niece alone in a brothel - confused, exposed, and humiliated.

People often describe this scene as Daemon "teaching Rhaenyra about sexuality" or "freeing her from Westerosi repression," but those interpretations or ideals ignore the fact that Daemon is the one CREATING the situation.

He is not liberating Rhaenyra from someone else's control, but rather exercising his own control over her.

Daemon's Violence

Another major issue with how fans interpret Daemon is that they often separate his violence from his relationships. They argue that Daemon is cruel to others but "different" with Rhaenyra.

"A cat shows its affection by biting."

However, Daemon's closest relationships are exactly where his worst behavior appears.

With Rhea Royce, his first wife, Daemon openly despises her, insults her, and treats the marriage as a humiliation rather than a commitment. His contempt eventually culminates in him murdering her.

With Laena Velaryon, their relationship is often romanticized because they share a love of dragons and appear happier than Daemon's other relationships - but even there, Daemon repeatedly prioritizes himself. Laena expresses her desire to return home, to be near her family, and to have her children raised around the people she loves. When Laena dies, Daemon's grief is real, but grief does not erase the fact that he often failed to truly listen to her while she was alive.

The pattern is consistent: Daemon loves people, but he also controls them. He feels, yes, but his feelings often exist alongside selfishness, entitlement, and violence.

Love is not the same thing as respect.

Daemon Does Not Protect Rhaenyra

Daemon often acts as though he knows what is best for Rhaenyra, but he frequently ignores what Rhaenyra herself wants. The clearest example is after Rhaenyra's miscarriage in the Season 1 finale; Rhaenyra calls for Daemon during labor and Daemon ignores her.

Instead of going to his wife, comforting her, or simply being present for her, the least he could do, he immediately returns to planning the war he wants to fight.

I think that episode especially shows me Daemon is someone who repeatedly prioritizes his own desires over the emotional needs of those around him.

Next comes the choking scene. In the words of Alys Rivers, "Oh, my."

After Rhaenyra has suffered a very traumatic experience, Daemon physically assaults her (strangles her) during an argument about the prophecy.

Daemon being scared does not make what he does acceptable, Daemon loving Rhaenyra does not make hurting her acceptable, and Daemon being complicated does not mean his actions stop having consequences.

How Season 3 Proves Daemon Only Loves What Rhaenyra Represents

A development I found interesting during Season 3's latest episode is Daemon's relationship with Rhaenyra becoming even more obviously rooted in projection. For years, fans have defended Daemon by claiming that he is the only person who truly sees Rhaenyra, but Season 3 reveals that he does not consistently see Rhaenyra.

He sees her as a blank slate for his own desires. He sees the empire he has always dreamed of.

However, when the real Rhaenyra (a grieving mother, a woman struggling with responsibility, and a queen trying to hold together a realm at war) does not perfectly align with that fantasy, Daemon becomes frustrated.

The conversation about Essos is one of the clearest examples.

Rhaenyra is focused on governing. She is trying to help the people of her city. She is hoping to prove that she is not just a claimant sitting on a throne, but a ruler capable of caring for those beneath her. Obviously, there are many blunders along the way, but Daemon dismisses this because he does not understand what Rhaenyra is trying to accomplish. To him, gestures are meaningless because he is already thinking beyond Westeros.

He tells her: "Why scrabble here for gold when the world lies before us?"

To me, that line is extremely telling of their dynamic; Rhaenyra is trying to rule, but Daemon is trying to ascend. He does not comfort Rhaenyra by telling her she is enough, nor does he reassure her that she can rebuild what has been lost. Instead, he tells her that the answer is becoming a… god?

"I style us gods, Rhaenyra. As we were always meant to be."

Yikes.

That's not to say Daemon doesn't have good qualities or his moments here and there, but loving someone does not mean you have the right to define them.

Daemon's dreams of Essos are not about saving Rhaenyra, either, but escaping accountability. Westeros is a place where Daemon's choices have consequences due to monarchies, laws, and political boundaries. People remember what he has done (part of the reason Daemon despises Otto).

But in Essos?

Across the Narrow Sea, Daemon can become whatever he wants. This is why he enjoyed going to the Stepstones and waging war on the Triarchy; he can reinvent himself. This is why he and Laena spent years traveling Essos with their daughters; he can reinvent himself. Daemon has always chased a place where he is not responsible for his actions.

Daemon does not merely fail to protect Rhaenyra, but he fails to see her as a person.

Daemon and Alicent: The "Whore"

Daemon's evolving relationship with Alicent is another example of how he struggles to see people as individuals rather than symbols.

From the beginning, Daemon views as Otto Hightower's daughter, a piece on the political board.

In Episode 1, Alicent is practically invisible to him. She is simply another noble girl at court. When he asks for her favor at the Heir's Tournament, it is not because he has any particular respect or affection for her, but rather a way to mock Otto.

Alicent is reduced to a prop in Daemon's personal conflict with the Hand.

However, when she becomes queen, Alicent is no longer irrelevant. To Daemon, she becomes proof of Otto's influence over Viserys and an attack on Targaryen power.

The scene in the gardens in Episode 4 with Viserys and the tapestries is especially revealing. Daemon and Viserys laugh and fart at Alicent's presence because they view her as less than. They do not consider that she is a person with fears, ambitions, beliefs, and desires; she is simply Otto's daughter.

Even years later, Daemon sees Alicent's choices as political maneuvers rather than the actions of a woman shaped by fear.

This does not mean Alicent is always right, but Daemon's inability to view her as a human being is part of his larger flaw: he reduces people into symbols.

Daemon and Fatherhood: Loving Your Children is NOT the Same as Being Present

Another aspect of Daemon's character that fans often overlook is his role as a father.

Daemon does love his children, but love alone does not make someone a good parent.

Daemon repeatedly struggles with being emotionally present. With Baela and Rhaena, especially after Laena's death, there is a sense that Daemon is more comfortable with dragons and war than with the everyday responsibilities of fatherhood.

Rhaena's insecurity about not having a dragon is especially telling. A child who desperately wants her father's approval does not receive the kind of emotional reassurance she needs.

Daemon understands dragons, conquest, and violence, but understanding children requires patience, vulnerability, and emotional availability.

Things Daemon consistently struggles with, and the same pattern appears with his sons by Rhaenyra.

He loves the legacy of House Targaryen, but he often struggles with the ordinary, difficult work of actually being there.

Daemon and Aemond: The Man Who Created His Own Monster

In many ways, Aemond is the younger generation's answer to Daemon.

They are both second sons who grow up in the shadow of an older brother. They are both intelligent, ambitious, and intensely aware of the power of their family name. They are both drawn toward the image of the legendary Targaryen warrior. They are both men who find identity through dragons, violence, and proving themselves. Even their names are practically mirrors of one another!

Aemond is Daemon's reflection.

Aemond is essentially what happens when someone spends their childhood looking at Daemon and thinking he is an example of strength.

Aemond grows up being mocked, humiliated, and considered lesser than because he does not have a dragon. He is the only Targaryen child without one (besides Rhaena, who he met once), and that insecurity shapes him.

Then, he claims Vhagar on Driftmark and suddenly becomes someone. Suddenly, he is feared. Suddenly, people look at him.

Who does he resemble? Daemon.

The Double Standard Between Daemon and Aemond

Something that has always fascinated me about the HotD fandom is its reaction to these two characters.

Aemond is a teenager. Daemon is a man in his 50s.

Aemond makes terrible choices and the fandom is quick to call him dangerous, unstable, or monstrous.

Daemon makes terrible choices, and many fans call him "babygirl," "husband material," or insist that people simply misunderstand him.

Aemond is held accountable for being shaped by his trauma, while Daemon is often excused because his trauma makes him interesting.

Trauma usually explains behavior, but it should never be used as an excuse.

Aemond losing his eye explains his rage, but does not justify what he does afterward.

Daemon's childhood, his relationship with Viserys, his feelings of being overlooked, and his desire for validation explain why he behaves the way he does, but do not erase the consequences of his actions.

The uncomfortable reality is that Daemon is what fans accuse Aemond of becoming: a Targaryen prince who believes violence is the easiest solution.

The difference is, however, that Daemon has decades of experience controlling that darkness.

Daemon, Aemond, and Projection

What makes Daemon and Aemond's rivalry so fascinating is that neither man fully sees the other.

Aemond sees Daemon as the version of himself he wants to become, but he also despises him.

Daemon sees Aemond as himself. The Harrenhal visions especially emphasize this idea: Daemon is forced to confront the possibility that he and Aemond are not as different as he wants to believe.

The sad part is that Aemond most likely believes Daemon would understand him. In many ways, Daemon is the only person in their family who would.

Aemond does not want to be loved. He wants to be respected. He wants people to look at him and feel the same fear and admiration they feel toward Daemon.

Daemon, meanwhile, unintentionally becomes the example that teaches him this is the way to achieve it.

Daemon and Oscar: Possibility and Hypocrisy

I find that one of the most fascinating contrasts introduced in the later parts of House of the Dragon (thus far) is the relationship between Daemon Targaryen and Oscar Tully.

Oscar is, in many ways, everything Daemon pretends to be: young, ambitious, and a warrior in a world defined by violence. Unlike Daemon, however, Oscar understands that power is not the same thing as intimidation.

Oscar Tully represents something Daemon has always struggled with: responsibility.

Daemon has spent his entire life wanting to be seen as exceptional. Oscar, however, understands that being a lord is not about proving that you are extraordinary.

Oscar forces Daemon to confront his own hypocrisy. The reason Oscar's confrontation with Daemon is so important is because it challenges the idea that Daemon's brutality is simply what makes him effective. For years, he has operated under the belief that harshness is necessary or that fear creates order. Oscar demonstrates another path. He is willing to make difficult choices, but he does so because of duty rather than ego.

Daemon often commits violence because he feels personally insulted, threatened, or challenged.

Oscar commits violence because he is forced to make decisions as a lord responsible for thousands of lives.

One is about himself, while the other is about his people.

This is why Oscar's demand for accountability is so powerful. He is not impressed by Daemon's legend, nor does he care that Daemon has Caraxes.

Oscar Tully understands something Daemon will never fully learn: a ruler is defined by what they do with power.

Nettles: How Fire & Blood Shows the Same Pattern

The relationship between Daemon and Nettles in Fire & Blood is one of the most debated aspects of his character. Regardless of whether readers interpret their relationship as romantic, paternal, or something more complicated, the important thing is that Nettles represents something Daemon has rarely experienced: someone who does not worship him.

Nettles is a young girl from a completely different background who bonds with a dragon through patience and trust rather than bloodline, something Daemon is obsessed with. She does not see Daemon as a legendary prince, but as a man.

Many characters around Daemon either fear him, admire him, or desire something from him, but Nettles does not. She exists outside his mythology, so that makes their bond one of the few relationships where Daemon may actually be forced to confront himself.

However, the uncomfortable reality remains that Daemon has a consistent pattern of grooming younger women who are vulnerable, isolated, or impressed by his status. That pattern cannot simply be ignored because the relationship is emotionally compelling.

Thoughts?

reddit.com
u/DogeABanana — 3 months ago
▲ 2 r/HouseOfTheDragon+1 crossposts

Rewriting House of the Dragon: Seeking Feedback on Pacing, Characterization, and Adaptation

Hello there!

I've been working on a pretty ambitious rewrite of House of the Dragon, and I'd love to hear from other fans - especially people who love both the show and Fire & Blood. My biggest goal is to make the series feel much more like the first four seasons of Game of Thrones: slower, more character-driven, politically rich, and willing to let relationships breathe.

Instead of reaching the outbreak of the Dance by the conclusion of Season 1, my version reaches that point at the end of Season 2, with the war itself spanning Seasons 3-5. Here's the rough structure:

Season 1

1. The Heirs of the Dragon

Viserys celebrates the birth of his long-awaited son. Rhaenyra welcomes her uncle, Daemon, back to the Red Keep.

2. The Rogue Prince

Viserys faces mounting pressure to remarry, Rhaenyra straddles the spectrum between affection and expectation, and Daemon tempts Otto with a stolen dragon egg.

3. Second of His Name

The court celebrates Aegon's second nameday as Rhaenyra faces the imminent prospect of marriage. Daemon and Corlys wage a war for the Stepstones.

4. King of the Narrow Sea

A night in King's Landing blurs Rhaenyra's distinction between duty and desire. Alicent jeopardizes her future at court.

5. By All Rights (RW)

Viserys reconciles an old rift with House Velaryon, Criston questions the oath that defines him, and Alicent seeks the truth about Rhaenyra.

6. We Light the Way (RW)

Rhaenyra's royal wedding marks the beginning of the end. Alicent steps into an unexpected role.

7. When Flowers Bloom (RW)

Rhaenyra and Laenor's agreement finally comes to pass. Alicent struggles with her latest pregnancy. On Driftmark, Laena faces a life-altering decision.

8. A World Apart (RW)

Daemon and Laena forge a family of their own beneath unfamiliar skies as Alicent strengthens her influence at court.

9. The Realm's Delight (RW)
10. His Blood Runs Thick (RW)

This season…

…covers the younger generation almost exclusively.
…allows Milly Alcock and Emily Carey to hold their roles as Rhaenyra and Alicent throughout the entire season.
…focuses on their falling friendship, Viserys, Daemon, Otto, Corlys, Criston, Laenor, Laena, Harwin, Lyonel, etc.
…ends around Rhaenyra and Laenor's marriage, Rhaenyra beginning to take the prophecy/her role as heir seriously rather than immediately jumping through years of history.

Season 2

1. The Princess and the Queen (RW)
2. Interests of the Realm (RW)
3. The Red Spring (RW)
4. Driftmark (RW)
5. Bound By Blood (RW)
6. Two Castles, Two Kings (RW)
7. The Four Storms (RW)
8. Lord of the Tides (RW)
9. The Green Council (RW)
10. First of Her Name (RW)

This season…

…introduces the next generation.
…contains one major six-year time skip after "Bound By Blood", allowing the children to age naturally while still giving us substantial time with both versions of them.
…Jace, Luke, Joffrey, Aegon, Helaena, Aemond, Daeron, Baela, and Rhaena gradually become major characters instead of appearing almost all at once.
…ends with the Green Council, Rhaenyra's coronation, and the beginning of the Dance.

The Parameters

One criticism I have of House of the Dragon's first season is that it sometimes seemed like characters would undergo enormous life changes almost entirely between episodes. Marriages happen, children are born, relationships evolve, rivalries intensify, and suddenly we're ten years later. I understand why this happened (the show had to cover decades of history and still be engaging post-Season 8), but it inevitably reduced the amount of time viewers actually spent living with these characters. I want the audience to really know these people!

I want Rhaenyra and Alicent's friendship to feel irreplaceable.

I want Laena, Harwin, Laenor, Lyonel, and others to feel like losses instead of historical footnotes.

I want the younger generation to have personalities, friendships, rivalries, and family dynamics long before the war starts.

I want Viserys's decline to be gradual and heartbreaking rather than sudden.

I'm also trying to stay closer to Fire & Blood where it strengthens the story, while still embracing great bits of television. I don't want to simply recreate the book, but I also don't want to invent conflict when George R.R. Martin already wrote compelling material that could be expanded on rather than replaced.

One inspiration is how Game of Thrones handled its early seasons, which rarely rushed through major emotional turning points. Characters spent entire episodes simply talking, traveling, celebrating, grieving, or building relationships. By the time Ned was executed or the Red Wedding occurred, the audience had spent dozens of hours getting attached to those characters.

I'd love feedback from other fans:

Where would you slow the story down? Which Fire & Blood events deserve entire episodes instead of being compressed? Which relationships would you expand the most? What do you think made early Game of Thrones so emotionally effective that House of the Dragon sometimes struggled to replicate? If you had two full seasons before the Dance instead of one, what stories or character moments would you include? Are there places where you think I'm in danger of stretching the material too much, or where a time skip is actually the better storytelling choice?

I'm less interested in changing the destination than I am in making the journey richer. My hope is that when the Dance of the Dragone finally begins, viewers feel like they're watching (or reading a script of) a family they've lived with for years slowly destroy itself, rather than a civil war that starts shortly after they've met half the cast.

I'd really appreciate any ideas, criticisms, or suggestions. I'm hoping to make this feel like the most faithful television adaptation of Fire & Blood possible while still taking full advantage of what a long-form TV series can do!

P.S. Season 1's first four episodes will remain untouched (I think they're fantastic), though I may "FanEdit" them in the future.

reddit.com
u/DogeABanana — 3 months ago