I've done some research on what religion Arains could have been before they converted to Islam, however the community only seems to have been formed after they converted to Islam so there's no pre-Islamic history for the community itself. Most people believe that we descended from Muhammad bin Qasim's invading army and some claim Rajput lineage, however both are highly unlikely.
ABCD fluent in English and Urdu, can read Urdu with easy to moderate difficulty and devanagari if i really lock in. are there any resources for me?
My ancestors moved from Jalandhar to modern day Bahawalnagar district in Pakistan around 1927 with the exception of my naanu’s side who came after partition. I know that our village is called Parjian but I feel like there’s a hundred villages around that area with the same name (my parents say we came from around the nakodar area but not verified).
As an American born I think it’s pretty easy for me to get an Indian visa but the real struggle is finding the village and im hoping I could find some family records too if any do survive in our ancestral village.
Posted this on another pakistani subreddit and the response was insane, hoping that people here would be a bit more open minded
As we know the nation state of Pakistan was founded on the two nation theory asserting that the Muslims of India constitute a distinct cultural and historical identity from the Hindu majority India and that a separate state must be crated in order to secure the rights of these Muslims.
As we approach 14 August, I think it is worth taking a step back, and actually reconsider whether the partition of a nation on this basis was actually justified, putting our patriotic and nationalistic sentiments aside.
My own personal opinion on partition has over time come to be strongly against. I simply cannot support the establishment of a religious state whether it be secular as Jinnah intended or whether it be a theocratic fascist regime as it currently is.
For one, I despise the use of religious nationalism especially as an American born where religious fanaticism basically runs politics and Christian nationalists are the most hollow minded yet the loudest when it comes to using their religion to take away other people's rights and then crying that white people khatre mein hai because everybody is tired of their bs and doesn't want to be religious anymore.
Secondly, not only is Pakistan at its core an religious nationalist project whether or not it chooses to be secular or theocratic, but it was also built on the blood of millions and the displacement of crores of people. As Manto infamously wrote, the blood of Hindus and Muslims which wouldn't mix in the masjids and the mandirs, would ultimately end up mixing in the gutters of Bombay. Same thing as the five rivers of the Punjab ran red with blood; not only did lakhs of Muslims die but Hindus and Sikhs were forced to give up their lives and ancestral homelands from which they stood to gain nothing.
Thirdly, Muslims of India and now Pakistanis do and continue to share a huge part of their cultural identity, and aside from religion North India and Pakistan are almost indistinguishable and i think the best example of this is Punjab, right at the spot the border cuts through, proving that cultural differences are mainly regional, not religious. Plus my ancestry result showed that all of my ancestry comes from the Indian subcontinent, with 95% coming from Punjab alone so the myth of most Indian Muslims being of foreign ancestry is a complete lie, particularly the myth of us having descended from Muhammad bin Qasim's army, which only stayed in Sindh for three years.
A counterpoint that people often bring up is to point to the treatment of the Muslim minority in modern day India. However, Muslims in India constitute only 14% of the population, and if it weren't for partition, that number would have been at least 30%, 1 in 3 instead of 1 in 7. Partition only made it worse for the Muslims who had no option but to stay behind, and Jinnah himself kind of seems to shift the blame onto them "Muslims who oppose Pakistan will spend the rest of their lives proving their loyalty to India" as if moving was a luxury they could afford.
Which leads me to my last point, marx's theory of historical materialism. We are used to thinking that our world is shaped by ideas and principles. False, our ideas and principles are shaped by the material realities of this world. Everything from your religion to your laws to your country are the dominant ideas that the ruling class uses to stay in power. Crazy to think that the only reason why I am Pakistani is because my great grandparents in Jalandhar feared for their lives and had to leave their generational wealth behind. Therefore my very identity is the product of the material realities that my grandparents faced.
Anyways, what do you guys think?
Can anyone make the words ‘Inquilab zindhabad’ in a beautiful nastaliq style? Both horizontal and vertical preferred, though I am especially interested in how it would turn out in vertical style
I want to get started with reading manto. Right now im thinking of starting with Toba Tek Singh. Any suggestions?
As we know the nation state of Pakistan was founded on the two nation theory asserting that the Muslims of India constitute a distinct cultural and historical identity from the Hindu majority India and that a separate state must be crated in order to secure the rights of these Muslims.
However most of us, due to a lack of belief in God, and/or the foundational Islamic doctrines, no longer see ourselves as Muslim. However, it could be argued that being a Muslim is not simply a matter of faith, but a lived experience of hundreds of years of shared history and culture. While you can forfeit your faith, it is very hard to forfeit the entire identity around it.
My own personal opinion on partition has over time come to be strongly against. As a left leaning marxist, I simply cannot support the establishment of a religious state whether it be secular as Jinnah intended or whether it be a theocratic fascist regime as it currently is.
For one, I despise the use of religious nationalism especially as an American where religious fanaticism basically runs politics and Christian nationalists are the most hollow minded yet the loudest when it comes to using their religion to take away other people's rights and then crying that white people khatre mein hai because everybody is tired of their bs and doesn't want to be religious anymore.
Secondly, not only is Pakistan at its core an Islamic nationalist project whether or not it chooses to be secular or theocratic, but it was also built on the blood of millions and the displacement of crores of people. As Manto infamously wrote, the blood of Hindus and Muslims which wouldn't mix in the masjids and the mandirs, would ultimately end up mixing in the gutters of Bombay. Same thing as the five rivers of the Punjab ran red with blood; not only did lakhs of Muslims die but Hindus and Sikhs were forced to give up their lives and ancestral homelands from which they stood to gain nothing.
Thirdly, marx's theory of historical materialism. We are used to thinking that our world is shaped by ideas and principles. False, our ideas and principles are shaped by the material realities of this world. Everything from your religion to your laws to your country are the dominant ideas that the ruling class uses to stay in power. Crazy to think that the only reason why I am Pakistani is because my great grandparents in Jalandhar feared for their lives and had to leave their generational wealth behind. Therefore my very identity is the product of the material realities that my grandparents faced.
Anyways, what do you guys think?
American born Pakistani here. I can usually read basic Urdu pretty easily due to reading Arabic to read the Quran from a very young age. In the past couple years I've also taught myself how to read and write Hindi in the Devanagari script, though I am still a bit slow at reading it compared to Urdu.
From my experience the Devanagari Hindi script has been a bit better for writing the language, as it contains clear syllable markers (ौ ै ा ी ू ो े ् ि ु ं ॉ), many of which the perso-arabic script does have, but it's not commonly used in Urdu since they kind of just assume you already know the language. So for example an Arabic speaker would kind of be able to read Urdu but wouldn't know how to sound the words out aside from shared vocabulary. Similarly it is hard for Urdu speakers to read Arabic as they don’t usually use syllable markers either for the same reason, and the Qurans that are printed in India and Pakistan have syllable markers that make it easier for non Arabs in general to read the Quran.
Though Urdu does have the same alphabet as Arabic and Persian largely and is therefore better able to sound out the words in their original form if you wanna speak real Urdu, in every day speech it’s pronounce regularly anyway, like ق/क़ are usually pronounced as ‘k’ instead of the deep throat letter they are meant to represent since it’s naturally harder for most Pakistanis and Indians to pronounce throat letters .
Also Hindi has specialized letters for aspirated sounds whereas Urdu will just attach the ‘h’ letter next to the consonant similarly to English, again making it apparent that Devanagari is better adapted for its job than nastaliq.
For example,
bh = भ = بھ or ب+ھ
th = थ/ठ = تھ/ٹھ
I’ve also come to realize that perso-Arabic must be super hard to read for beginners due to its joined letters which I wouldn’t have experienced since I’ve learned it from a very young age.
I (21M ABCD) lost faith in God over a year and a half ago due to stuff that was going on in my life in which I grew completely disillusioned with God.
Now I was raised in a pretty religious household and my religion is still very important to me as it is still a huge part of my identity and that's something I'll never let go of. To put it in simple terms I identify as an atheist but also a Cultural Muslim.
I definitely do want to pass my religion down to my kids, not as a belief system but as a culture and an identity. I believe all religions are beautiful and still want to keep the good things and lessons that Islam teaches while making sure that the more negative and dirtier stuff dies down for good. Basically I use my critical thinking to discern what I should follow and what stuff is detrimental and doing more harm than good instead of following some stupid dogmas fearing that I'll go to some make believe hell if I don't, and I would expect my kids to also use their brains.
Needless to say the attitudes a lot of people have in the mainstream Muslim community are pretty disgusting and worrying at times, and it has so much to do with the dogmatism. And the fact that I still live with my parents and I have to keep pretending in front of them is so exhausting and tiring, but I know I'll never be able to tell them. And the more restrictive my parents are to me the more it makes me hate my own religion, and I constantly get paranoid realizing this is the only life I get to live and I'm still stuck living with my parents who let me out of the house only once in a blue moon. I am impatient to move somewhere far far away so I can start a new life that isn't so tied to the religion and community I grew up being so devoted to.
However at the same time I feel like the ex-Muslim community is so toxic. From my experience about eighty percent of these people paid by Mossad to larp as Christians and spread Islamophobia and disinformation on the internet. And it sucks so badly for genuine ex-Muslims I feel like because for one it ruins our image in front of Muslims who are already pretty fanatic and easily offended and secondly it leaves genuine ex-Muslims without a space. Just because I stopped believing in Islam doesn't mean I hate it, and even if someone does hate Islam, they don't have to sell out to the Western imperialist war propaganda machine and side with the oppressors.
Being a former Muslim doesn't automatically mean I wish for the downfall of Islam. I am simply against religious dogmatism. And I genuinely hope that the apostate community gets better representation especially as I feel like Muslim apostates already have it worse than other communities, and a simple refusal of belief can put someone's life in danger, going through all that just to be embraced by a community of Mossad agents who seek to recruit you to be a propagandist for the destruction of your own people has got to be the worst situations ever.
Muslim Punjabi from the Arain biradari here; my ancestors were farmers originally from Jalandhar and most of my grandparents moved to Bahawalpur area in the 1920s after running out of land and the rest after partition. Wondering when exactly my ancestors must have converted to Islam, especially since I've gotten many different answers ranging from the 10th to 17th centuries. Although the mainstream view is that our ancestors were among the Arab soldiers of Muhammad-bin-Qasim's army who led the conquest of Sindh in the 8th century, the story is most likely fabricated and my ancestry results also seem to disprove it. Others claim Rajput origin, however that is also unlikely.
Also interested in knowing what types of rituals they participated in before Islam and potentially even for a decent while after converting. I know the conversion process was gradual and involved more of Sufi pirs and shared religious spaces such as dargas rather than forced conversions by the sword or sudden acceptance of strict orthodox ideology. Obviously they probably didn't practice Brahminical Hinduism but probably worshipped some folk deities as well as some more mainstream Hindu ones. I do know from my parents knowledge that either my grandparents or great grandparents generation still celebrated Vaisakhi which made sense as it was more common in rural areas, and it was more associated with being a simple wheat harvesting festival and less with its Hindu origins. Though I do know it was my grandfather who initially decided to start practicing a more orthodox version of Islam, though by that time the Ahl al-Hadith movement was already well underway and the further Islamization with the creation of the national identity and modern day state of Pakistan.
When I first became irreligious towards the very end of 2024, it was almost purely due to disillusionment with God. I was going through extreme academic difficulties and after being super religious my entire childhood and early adult life attending the masjid regularly I had a very strong feeling that God had let me down as I was overwhelmed by people in college much much smarter than me and seemed to have everything figured out while my whole life fell apart. I just stopped believing God existed, partly as a form of rebellion and partly cause I simply had just given up. At the time I told myself it was just a temporary feeling and that eventually I would come back to God like I always had but I guess deep down inside I already knew that this time it was different.
That being said, I never came back from it. Though nowadays it is much more cemented, I experienced a significant shift in my worldview and everything felt like it had flipped on its head compared to two years ago. Though I am still trying to figure stuff out and its extremely difficult trying to figure out my identity , and still have deep respect for my religion especially when it’s not brain dead and dogmatic and bevels a tool of resistance to oppression in this world, I am still most certain that I will never believe in God again, at least not the Islamic/Abrahamic God or even any other deity for that matter. A lot of it comes with realizing that everything you did in your childhood now no longer means anything; because for someone who was once a devout Muslim, giving up Islam feels like giving up everything you feel like you’ve accomplished in the past along with any sense of direction in your future.
And combined with the fact that even before leaving I had extreme problems with anger control and with patience and belief that everything will get better and always felt like a pessimist, which ironically might have motivated me to give up on God altogether
I am still struggling tremendously as my academics continue to plummet; once a devout Muslim and aspiring doctor I know don't even know if I will be able to finish my major without failing out, and also the realization that this is the only life I'll ever get, that there is no afterlife, makes me constantly impatient to move out of my parents' house, get the fk out of my lame ass city, leave my past behind, and be who I want to be. But also at the same time I'm scared that that won't solve anything and I would ultimately end up at the same spot again mentally.
I know that somehow I will need to end up having to confront the extreme short temper and lack of patience I’ve always had as it’s always been a burden on my family at times and I would hate for it to potentially carry onto my wife and kids someday.
Now obviously these two poems take place in vastly different socio-cultural contexts with the former being part of a Hindu religious text centering on a legendary battle and teaching important lessons about dharma or duty, and the latter being a complaint about the contemporary decline of Muslims in India and of the Muslim world at large at the time it was written.
What the two texts do have in common though is the open, two sided dialogue that takes place with God.
The Bhagavad Gita sees Arjuna, who is devastated by the bloodshed on the battlefield, and Krishna, who urges him to fulfill his dharma (duty) in fighting against unrighteousness of the Pandavas, and to detach himself from the results of his actions, and focus only on the actions themselves.
Allama Iqbal's poems sees itself divided into two parts: Shikwa (complaint) and Jawab-e-Shikwa (response to the complaint). In the first part (Sikwa), Iqbal details the declining state of Muslims and the Islamic world, with the British subjugating a once Mughal ruled India as well as the rapid decline of the Ottoman Empire in the backdrop. Iqbal complains that God has abandoned his promise to protect Islam and followers. In the second part (Jawab-e-Shikwa), God responds by telling him that he has not in fact abandoned his promise and it is in fact the Muslims who have strayed from the righteous path and divided themselves.
Regardless of the vast differences, I feel that this common theme among both pieces is a beautiful representation of a history of open dialogue with God in the Indian subcontinent.
Funny enough, when Allama Iqbal first released Shikwa, he was branded a heretic for disrespecting and questioning the authority of Allah. However, when he released Jawab-e-Shikwa (the other part), the clerics rescinded their accusations and instead championed it as a rejection of the first part Shikwa.
Upon this, Iqbal famously stated that when I tried to be the voice of a human, they labelled me a kafir (heretic) and denounced it as blasphemy but when I tried to be the voice of God they celebrated me.
Now obviously these two poems take place in vastly different socio-cultural contexts with the former being part of a Hindu religious text centering on a legendary battle and teaching important lessons about dharma or duty, and the latter being a complaint about the contemporary decline of Muslims in India and of the Muslim world at large at the time it was written.
What the two texts do have in common though is the open, two sided dialogue that takes place with God.
The Bhagavad Gita sees Arjuna, who is devastated by the bloodshed on the battlefield, and Krishna, who urges him to fulfill his dharma (duty) in fighting against unrighteousness of the Pandavas, and to detach himself from the results of his actions, and focus only on the actions themselves.
Allama Iqbal's poems sees itself divided into two parts: Shikwa (complaint) and Jawab-e-Shikwa (response to the complaint). In the first part (Sikwa), Iqbal details the declining state of Muslims and the Islamic world, with the British subjugating a once Mughal ruled India as well as the rapid decline of the Ottoman Empire in the backdrop. Iqbal complains that God has abandoned his promise to protect Islam and followers. In the second part (Jawab-e-Shikwa), God responds by telling him that he has not in fact abandoned his promise and it is in fact the Muslims who have strayed from the righteous path and divided themselves.
Regardless of the vast differences, I feel that this common theme among both pieces is a beautiful representation of a history of open dialogue with God in the Indian subcontinent.
Funny enough, when Allama Iqbal first released Shikwa, he was branded a heretic for disrespecting and questioning the authority of Allah. However, when he released Jawab-e-Shikwa (the other part), the clerics rescinded their accusations and instead championed it as a rejection of the first part Shikwa.
Upon this, Iqbal famously stated that when I tried to be the voice of a human, they labelled me a kafir (heretic) and denounced it as blasphemy but when I tried to be the voice of God they celebrated me.
Nothing interesting aside from the gulf of khambhat and southwest Indian ancestry. for the latter im pretty sure every Indian has at least some trace amounts however i dont know if the gulf khambat ancestry necessarily means i have some distant ancestry from Gujarat?
Also found it interesting that Punjabi/Sindhi Hindu was the group that I matched the most with. I’m assuming they don’t have a ton of Muslim south Asians in their database. After all it’s ancestry and I’ve heard other sites like 23andme are better for tracking lineage
When I first became irreligious towards the very end of 2024, it was almost purely due to disillusionment with God. I was going through extreme academic difficulties and after being super religious my entire childhood and early adult life attending the masjid regularly I had a very strong feeling that God had let me down as I was overwhelmed by people in college much much smarter than me and seemed to have everything figured out while my whole life fell apart. I just stopped believing God existed, partly as a form of rebellion and partly cause I simply had just given up. At the time I told myself it was just a temporary feeling and that eventually I would come back to God like I always had but I guess deep down inside I already knew that this time it was different.
That being said, I never came back from it. Though nowadays it is much more cemented, I experienced a significant shift in my worldview and everything felt like it had flipped on its head compared to two years ago. Though I am still trying to figure stuff out and its extremely difficult trying to figure out my identity , and still have deep respect for my religion especially when it’s not brain dead and dogmatic and bevels a tool of resistance to oppression in this world, I am still most certain that I will never believe in God again, at least not the Islamic/Abrahamic God or even any other deity for that matter. A lot of it comes with realizing that everything you did in your childhood now no longer means anything; because for someone who was once a devout Muslim, giving up Islam feels like giving up everything you feel like you’ve accomplished in the past along with any sense of direction in your future.
And combined with the fact that even before leaving I had extreme problems with anger control and with patience and belief that everything will get better and always felt like a pessimist, which ironically might have motivated me to give up on God altogether
I am still struggling tremendously as my academics continue to plummet; once a devout Muslim and aspiring doctor I know don't even know if I will be able to finish my major without failing out, and also the realization that this is the only life I'll ever get, that there is no afterlife, makes me constantly impatient to move out of my parents' house, get the fk out of my lame ass city, leave my past behind, and be who I want to be. But also at the same time I'm scared that that won't solve anything and I would ultimately end up at the same spot again mentally.
I know that somehow I will need to end up having to confront the extreme short temper and lack of patience I’ve always had as it’s always been a burden on my family at times and I would hate for it to potentially carry onto my wife and kids someday.
I am an American born Pakistani; my parents and grandparents speak Punjabi but I, like many others in my generation, were raised in Urdu. Basically, my parents speak Punjabi with each other but Urdu with me.
I have however made an effort in the past few years to make at least some conversation in Punjabi with my parents, even though I haven't always been supported, since my parents see no use in me learning it. All of the Punjabi I know is from years of hearing my parents and relatives speak it rather than from actually speaking and engaging with it, so my Punjabi is still very uncomfortable at times but it has noticeably improved which my parents do point out from time to time.
The fact that the language my ancestors spoke for hundreds if not thousands of years should die with me just because Urdu and English are viewed as more 'useful' or prestigious languages is beyond me. Disappointing to see Punjabi keep getting sidelined in contemporary Pakistani discourse and history as an old folk or villager language, and because Muslims/Pakistanis are supposed to speak Urdu, and Punjabi is for Sikhs apparently since people can't seem to differentiate between ethnolinguistic and religious identity. That being said, Muslims have contributed toa countless amount of Punjabi literature, which I've noticed that ironically even Sikhs take better care of, preserving poetry from Baba Farid in the Guru Granth Sahib. It is for this reason that I applaud the Sikh community for preserving Punjabi in a way that Pakistanis have miserably failed, especially as I see Punjabi being taught and standardized even in the West.
Aside from my rant, are there any resources anyone can suggest for me to learn Punjabi for someone who can understand conversational Punjabi easy but is a bit shaky when speaking with correct sentence structure. Looking to start off with Shahmukhi Punjabi since I can somewhat read Urdu however Roman Punjabi would be the easiest for me.
Heard this phrase but can’t remember if this is in Punjabi or Saraiki
