u/Independent-Rich-640

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In case your confused about the almost 15 years part keep in mind brendan has been in prison since march 2013 and the show had that 1 year time jump making it a little bit over 14 years in universe since he was first banged up,

So its sort of funny how even though brendan well and truly had warren beat the last time they saw each other but with the passage of time warren has very much gotten the last laugh since not only did he get out of prison after only a few years

But he also has gone on to cause almost twice as many deaths as he had done when brendan originally got him banged up and is still free while brendan is still banged up lol.

Redemption is supposed to be about changing your old ways of life and doing meaningful things to atone and her continuing to be in heaven doing the exact same thing she's always done with no change doesn't really sit right with me

as the "" redemption "" in this case is basically just getting away with what she did because she happens to be a likeable person who was born in heaven,

And the continued presence of people like her in heaven kind of ruins heaven as a concept since it really isn't this paradise meant that upholds kindness and serves as a place for good people if someone can be born there and thus get special privilege in spite of their actions

So that changes it into basically just being an upper class neighbourhood to be honest and hell being the lower class 1 if your actual actions and the way you live don't matter when it comes to who gets to be there in certain cases because you just happened to be born high up in the hierarchy,

Before anyone says "" well what about lute "" that's different she's an ongoing antagonist as confirmed by vivziepop in an interview that's going to become worse in future and get some sort of comeuppance either dying or getting cast out for her actions in future

But that's different from sera whose current position in the show most people want to remain stagnant rather than change or grow in any sort of way even though redemption is meant to involve change and growth

And effort That's kind of the defining difference between a redeemed antagonist and an antagonist that is just a karma houdini,

And sera willingly falling to actually go down and do work to atone in hell would be an actual action that would show meaningful change in character by her not just staying in the same spot she's comfortable in continuing to leave the hard work to emily and others

While feeling good about herself for simply not stopping them like we see in the final shots of heaven in season 2 lmao where everyone else is working while she's just sitting on her ass when she could actually be doing things with her presumably high level of power as a seraphim to actually do good,

( Also the problem is she was literally the only heaven higher up who okayed the exterminations so her staying in power only benefits herself by keeping her in the rich lifestyle she was born into rather than passing it over to people who can actually be trusted

Which would also work as a good gesture to hell to reassure them this won't ever happen again rather than acting as though hell should just have to be okay with no accountability in heaven simply because the person who did it was there and thus her personal feelings matter more than her victims ),

And instead she can be out there actually trying to help the people she wronged wether its with redemption or just helping certain people in hell be less miserable in their vices like angel dust who I feel may be miserable in his current situation of porn and drug addiction

But is the sort of person who would actually prefer hell so long as he can still maybe see his sister sometimes and can be free of valentino and cope better with his vices,

And I know people bring up the question of who would run heaven instead and frankly I don't think that's relevant the answer is it can literally be anyone be it a character/characters we know or 1 that we don't

But using this sort of hyper logic to try and write the show out of having characters do meaningful things or change just seems weird as you could literally do that with anyone you could also say its not logical for charlie to even be as kind and empathetic as she is given the place she grew up in and basically write the show's entire premise out of existence with this logic lmao

We haven't seen enough of heaven and the other higher ups to presume no one else can take the role or can be trusted with it since all evidence points to sera being the 1 bad apple in the higher up roles given she had to act in secrecy with adam,

And sera's character staying in heaven and not actually doing anything herself to show meaningful change or atonement would be as terrible as if the show had vox redeem himself by simply not hurting people anymore and then nothing else changing about his tech ceo overlord role in hell

And he instantly gets forgiven by all of the main cast and is chums with them or alastor or valentino or velvet but it feels as though a lot of fans are rather averse to the idea of sera's character changing in any way but you shouldn't be afraid of that or want the character remain stagnant

Especially in a show built around redemption which by nature has to involve people changing and not just staying exactly the same ( Also on a side note people need to stop glazing heaven's system as though its better than hells overlord system

Both are shitty and unfair in heaven what you happen to be born as dictates wether you literally live to serve others like the exorcists do or if you get to rule above everyone else and live by different cosmic standards simply because you happened to be born a seraphim

And people being born to serve others is just as much slavery as the overlord system is if not more so given the overlord system still has choice for the people at the start so please stop acting like heavens system is somehow more correct or fair when in reality the only difference is that its rich and white and not rundown and poor like most of hell looks lmao )

And I see the helluvaverse fandom complain a lot about stella fans defending her and having double standards for her simply because of her gender and looks which yes her defenders can be annoying

But the hazbin hotel fandom is literally doing the same thing with sera by exaggerating her actions so far and wanting her to be held to easier and lesser standards than every single other being in the universe simply because she happened to be born upperclass in the heaven hierarchy

That isn't any different or better than what the stella defenders do that people seem to hate the only difference is sera has a less annoying voice lmao but both of you guys are holding characters to different standards

And giving them special treatment over other characters ignoring their actual actions because of surface level things about them like gender and class if sera's character is actually going to be a good example to set for redemption in universe then she should be held to the same standards as others rather than being given nepotism privileges but it being treated as ok.

Which is ironic that over the years brendan and the show actually seems to have been called out for this more and more even if people do still love the character but with lucas when it came to his abuse storyline the fandom went full force in blaming his dad

And absolving him of almost any responsibility even as he abused him repeatedly and tried to literally murder him and then also harassed his ex dillion like some sort of stalker and later attacked him yet I've also seen people still root for them to get back together and act as though lucas should just be instantly forgiven after only spending 5 minutes in prison for his pretty serous actions,

It is also ironic given how much flack the fandom gave rex for initially just being able to move on after his part in the grooming of teens which is understandable but yet lucas is held to a different standard and made excuses for by people

Its a shame because I honestly think he made a good villain being a messed up teen turned abuser and possessive ex but the show and the fandom couldn't just acknowledge that he was a shitty person

and that you can still like a character while admitting they are bad and deserve to be held accountable for their actions and the show letting him out of prison so soon is just bullshit to be honest he should have gotten a few years at least quite frankly before the show should have even considered bringing him back and trying to redeem him.

The 1 villain who spent most of his movie being made to suffer and had the second best reason for doing the bad thing that he did behind gristle who wanted to help himself and his people stop suffering

And who only did 1 bad thing under extreme duress is the character who people seem to get endlessly hung up on being given another chance by the peaceful forgiving pop tribe and not being punished even more?

I just don't understand this logic what would punishing creek even more accomplish? its not like he did wrong because of some bad habit like greed or anger he did it to survive because he was thrown into a terrifying situation no normal person should ever be thrown into

So what would punishing him accomplish when he was already made to suffer by the bergens for most of the first movie and didn't do what he did out of any sort of ill will,

And why is it an issue the forgiving and peaceful pop tribe giving another chance to someone who only did something wrong in this very specific and very extreme situation where he technically had no choice ( Having you're life threatened to be ended immediately if you don't do something means you do not have clear cut free will )

And in which he was put through some very bad things that honestly do warrant some empathy given creek didn't do anything wrong in the first place to deserve being kidnapped and held captive and almost killed,

It just seems strange to me because creek is the only antagonist besides grislte who I feel its understandable to forgive given his situation and motives unlike other characters like barb and crimp and veneer who get shown more empathy by the movies and fans

But had way worse and more selfish motives and worse actions in the sense that they repeatedly did wrong and they had complete free will in what they did so people having more of an issue with creek betraying his people

Because he was held captive and sort of tortured and threatened with immediate death over people like barb or veneer or crimp who on paper are worse in pretty much every logical way yet were also shown empathy and given second chances seems weird to me to be honest in fact I would argue if

You don't believe someone who did a crime for the reasons creek did deserves a second chance then it would be hypocritical for you to offer second chances to other criminals given most motives outside of being forced to commit a crime under literal threat of death are easily going to be worse lmao,

And I know people hate branch being ostracised by the village and having to apologise to him but people seem to forget that this didn't happen simply because branch didn't want to forgive him

It happened because he kept messing around trying to prove that everyone else had to think the same way that he did even though it was their choice to give him another chance just as much as it was his right to not trust him again.

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It would be very funny in my opinion if everyone was so busy with other things and no one really paid much attention to stella that she ended up actually betrayed her brother rather than vice versa like the fans theory about and ends up scoring a win

Not because she's actually some secret mastermind or anything but because she is actually a little smarter than people give her credit for and everyone just underestimates her a bit too much that they don't consider that she could actually accomplish something if she puts her mind to it lmao.

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I mean ravi what type of ending do you want for him? I am hoping he isn't killed off but does do something extreme perhaps as the new year gunman maybe he kills someone else or at least badly injures them

And that sees him getting put back in prison which works both as a conclusive end to his character for the meantime but also leaves the door open if the actor ever wants to come back at some point and while I do love ravi

But I normally like my favourite villain/morally grey type characters to face some consequences for their deeds at some point sooner or later so I wouldn't mind him going back to prison for a while and possibly coming back in a few years or something.

It was recently announced that ravi is going to be leaving and I am devastated as I love him he's easily my favourite bad boy anti hero tough guy type character in the show in years but I do wonder if his exit may finally resolve the dangling kheerat shaped elephant in the room

Since the show has mostly just had the characters forget that kheerat has been left in prison for a killing that ravi committed so I wonder if ravi could end up getting arrested as part of his exit and maybe because he's already going down for something very serous

He also decides to finally admit to killing his adoptive dad so kheerat can be released off screen but not come back to the show since I don't think the actor wants to come back but the show could still resolve this lingering thread otherwise if ravi does leave or even get killed off then it would be weird to completely forget about kheerat still being inside.

People have been giving her huge credit for simply not killing people any more and acting like that itself is some big redemption action when that should be seen as the bare minimum not as something special she deserves praise for

If valentino simply stopped abusing angel dust next season would people be claiming that itself was a redemptive action that he deserves loads of credit for? or would people rightly be claiming that it is the literal bare minimum and the redemption has only just started and is on the literal ground floor so far?

And people try to claim she deserves credit for letting sinners into heaven but she didn't god you know her boss literally had to go over her head to let sinners in because when it was up to her in season 1 she refused,

And people claiming that her simply not stopping her sister or charlie or anyone else from doing good things is some big atoning action by her and all she needs to do to redeem herself for causing more harm than most if not all of the other major antagonists

Is simply continue doing what she is doing at the end of season 2 is frankly an insane level of favouritism and if that is the way the show goes with her then at best it will look like vivziepop is showing incredibly unfair favouritism

Or at worst it will look like the show is presenting a very classist message that the people who just happened to be born upper class are in fact the best people to be in power regardless of their actual actions

And them living by different rules and standards to everyone else is the correct natural order of things that should never be challenged or changed which would be worrying as fuck to be honest,

I get that sera is the tumblr villain darling of the fandom and its all well and good to like antagonists but people just need to stop having such low expectations of her compared to other characters as a show about redemption where 1 of the most important songs is

"" It starts with sorry "" not "" It ends with sorry "" should not portray a message that a character can redeem themselves for causing such harm that countless people in real life literally suffer from without having to make meaningful changes to her life and put in effort

And struggle and work and get knocked down only to get back up again and keep trying and not be easily handed everything she wants on a neat tray because redemption isn't meant to be a get out of jail free card

If it was then that would actually invalidate the whole thing and taking accountability in meaningful ways rather than just saying "" ooops my bad I feel a little bit sad about this "" like she did in season 2,

But people need to stop exaggerating every little thing sera has done when she really hasn't actually done anything yet and having such insanely low expectations for what they expect from her in the future Its fine to want an antagonist to do better and get a happy ending

But basically wanting an antagonist to get off scott free but trying to twist it to make out like that is redemption is not the same thing for example I can want lute to be redeemed while not trying to act like she should be given maximum credit if she simply didn't kill sinners anymore

Or that she would be atoning for her actions by simply not trying to kill charlie or emily or any sinners that come into heaven anymore as that would obviously be a very unfair and low standard compared to what we expect from other characters to redeem themselves the same applies to sera.

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Seems like that's what the bloodthirsty fandom would like but even though I do think she should be held accountable by via and stolas I don't want to see her killed or banished and rendered homeless and prostituting herself to survive or whatever it is people want to see lmao,

I would just prefer stolas and via eventually patching things up after they both recognise things that need to change in their relationship and via realising just how bad her mother was to him during their marriage and confronting her on it

And stolas can even get his home and position back but I think he could show himself to be the bigger person and not try to have stella punished in any great sadistic way and even tells via he's fine if she wants to continue having a relationship with her

and won't try and guilt her or stand in her way and that can be a choice left up to her but obviously stella wouldn't be able to mess with him any more by this point for 1 reason or another so she's not a threat any more and stolas decides to leave it there.

It felt very unfair how in the movies every major antagonist is given a chance to do better at 1 point or another and some take it like gristle and barb and crimp and some don't like velvet and chef but creek is never really given any such chance instead during the climax of the movie

Chef is given the chance to just accept that trollstice is over the same as everyone else but instead she tries to bitterly kill the trolls 1 last time and this seals not only her fate but also creeks even though he was her hostage stuck in her little pouch at the time

So he's sort of the only trolls antagonist in the movies to never be given a chance to stop and do better after his initial crime instead the story seals his fate after his betrayal of the village since he has no more control over anything that happens to him afterwards in the movie

But he also had no real control over anything that happened to him before either given he was a hostage who could have been killed at any time and nearly was so I feel like the creek week episode from the beat goes on actually corrected a mistake from the 1st movie if anything,

As having a franchise that often preaches second chances and understanding not giving understanding and a second chance to an antagonist who was mostly a victim of circumstance and only did something bad because of a lack of any actual good choices would come across as very strange writing to be honest,

( The bergens and gristle and chef and in later movies barb and crimp are all given the chance to still turn things around after their initial crimes but this 1 character isn't because he betrayed his friends due to not wanting to die?

That would feel like very unfair writing if the tv show hadn't come along and made it clear the creek would also be offered the same second chance from the trolls if he did ever come back so I think that episode of the show was good for showing that ).

Barb's actions were both extreme and not really excusable or defendable given how shallow her motives were yet in the end she gets a happy ending and the trolls all act fine with her again and in the holiday special she gives a bit of a weak sounding apology about this and apparently went on a tour to apologise off screen,

But this feels like a pretty good guide on how not to redeem a villain to be honest as barb's character did everything wrong from attacking cities of her own species and imprisoning countless people

And attempting to destroy all other cultures and turn people into rock zombies for the rest of their lives and having very weak motives for doing this and having multiple chances where she could have chosen to stop and didn't

Even after the strings were destroyed she instead of owning up to her actions and trying to fix things she tried to shift the blame onto poppy,

So she is just as bad as other villains and deserved to face consequences just as much as velvet and veneer and chef did but instead she just gets let off scott free despite not really earning it which Is where I feel the movie is sending a bad message,

To me it feels like barb had her chance for redemption when the strings were destroyed but she rejected it yet still was given a happy ending its sort of like if chef had still tried to kill the trolls at the end of movie 1 while the other bergens were all accepting trollstice being cancelled

but instead of this resulting in her being kicked out and later being met with her bad end she simply had the weapon knocked out of her hand but was still let off the hook with no consequences despite rejecting her chance to redeem herself and stop,

And I've seen some people defend this by saying its down to her being a princess and the leader of her tribe but in my opinion that would send an even worse message if that is meant to be the explanation for why she was let off the hook

Since it is an unfortunate thing about reality that people who happened to be born in privilege and power a lot of times get away with terrible things and are held to different standards from other people but the movie portrays barb's ending as a happy and positive thing

So if it is in fact the case that she is treated differently from other villains due to her status she was born into then that's a terrible message to send to kids that people getting away with extreme crimes because of their privilege is in fact a good thing,

Some people might mention gristle also getting let off in the first film for trying to cause a genocide when he was a king which I don't think is entirely unfair but he did at least choose to do good in the end and give up on his plan

Unlike barb who remained defiant to the bitter end even after the music was gone and until her plan was entirely prevented and only stopped when the music was brought back by others

But if she had gotten her own way then most of her species would be enslaved forever and their cultures would have been destroyed,

So I don't think any way you look at the ending makes this a good redemption because she was either let off the hook simply because she was rendered harmless or she was let off the hook because of her privilege but neither 1 is really a good thing.

It felt a little bit rushed to me like the movie sees them saving floyd as though that fixed everything but it didn't actually feel like they addressed the problems the family actually had in my opinion its not even necessarily just that the brothers didn't apologise for walking away

Or that john and bruce didn't apologise for calling branch a child for being upset over something most adults would naturally feel upset over but its more that it didn't feel like the behaviour was actually acknowledged at all

It felt like the family got back together simply because of the emotional high from saving floyd but didn't actually meaningfully talk about their problems or do anything that should make us feel like they are a more stable family now than they were earlier in the movie

When they seemed to be getting along but then the old problems came back to the surface because they were not properly acknowledged and talked about earlier in the movie,

I'm sorry i hope this isn't coming across as too cynical I didn't hate the movie I actually enjoyed most of it ( Especially velvet and veneer ) but I felt a little disappointed by the ending.

It felt a little bit rushed to me like the movie sees them saving floyd as though that fixed everything but it didn't actually feel like they addressed the problems the family actually had in my opinion its not even necessarily just that the brothers didn't apologise for walking away

Or that john and bruce didn't apologise for calling branch a child for being upset over something most adults would naturally feel upset over but its more that it didn't feel like the behaviour was actually acknowledged at all

It felt like the family got back together simply because of the emotional high from saving floyd but didn't actually meaningfully talk about their problems or do anything that should make us feel like they are a more stable family now than they were earlier in the movie

When they seemed to be getting along but then the old problems came back to the surface because they were not properly acknowledged and talked about earlier in the movie,

I'm sorry i hope this isn't coming across as too cynical I didn't hate the movie I actually enjoyed most of it ( Especially velvet and veneer ) but I felt a little disappointed by the ending.

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Vivziepop isn't necessarily at fault for fandom's romanticising bad people to this degree but a part of is definitely down to the way she has written her so far by prioritising making her likeable rather than making it so its her actions people judge her on and not her class status and personality,

So at this point it may be just as necessary to actually call out the toxic defenders and make it clear that sera is not innocent or the secret her and no people going out of their way to defend and baby her and use the tiniest bits of decency

To act like she's a better person than she really is and having absurdly low standards for what they consider her redemption compared to basically every other being in the hellaverse simply because she was born upperclass and is surface level likeable

The sera defenders are honestly worse than the stella and alastor ones the only difference is that the sera fans make up the majority and have normalised their babying more so an ending like this does feel like it would be a necessary wake up call for the fandom

To snap them out of their romanticisation of a genocidal cowardly nepotism baby rather than acting like these things make her a better person than the other antagonists regardless of how much their actual actions pail in comparison to hers and showing that despite what people think

A character shouldn't be allowed to get away with actions scott free simply because the character in question is rich and likeable and true redemption isn't about surface level qualities like those.

Little side tangent that is sort of related but I often see people label fizzarolli as an example of an antagonist who was redeemed similar to verosika but that's just incorrect as an antagonist is someone who actively opposes our protagonists goals

Which verosika technically did in her first episode in a very minor way but fizzarolli never did anything to get in the way of blitzo's goals he's simply someone who hated blitzo but a character disliking the main character doesn’t make them an antagonist so fizzarolli isn't an example of a redeemed antagonist,

Anyhow now that that is out of the way lmao if you could choose any of the other antagonists to have a sort of redemption then which 1 would you find the most interesting?

The question isn't about likelihood you can go for literally anyone even if you think they have no chance in hell of actually happening lmao.

People seem to claim they like the character because she's someone who has done something terrible but wants to take responsibility and do better but when the fandom talks about this people don't seem to want her to actually do either of those things

For example when you talk about her future redemptive actions all people seem to want and expect from her is her simply not stopping charlie from redeeming people and telling other people in heaven to maybe do some good stuff

While sera herself continues to sit in her office and do nothing to help like we see in the season 2 finale at the end and even during the climax she still did nothing to actually help despite her power to do so,

And even when it comes to problems she is mostly to blame for like lute who was created to serve heaven and who sera enabled to become worse over the years because she dumped the responsibility of the exterminations she ordered on her and adam

The fandom seems to mostly want lute to be made fallen in future and even if they are for the idea of lute being helped they seem to see no issue with heaven meaning sera dumping a problem she created onto the people she victimised rather than you know taking responsibility and dealing with her herself like people claim she wants to do,

It seems like people like sera so much that they have somehow twisted these concepts to mean things that don't actually require any effort or sacrifice or change to her life at all while claiming these are things you like about her

When really you just liked her for exactly who she was in season 1 and wanted her to be a villain who gets away with it but don't want to accept that you liked a bad person so your twisting the meaning of redemption to try and fit it around a character who never has to change or work for it in your ideal scenario,

Sera should not have lower standards for redeeming herself for literal genocide simply because she is likeable and happened to be born in heaven which basically just means she was born rich and privileged and says nothing about her actual moral character at all

If anything the fandom should have higher standards for her not lower considering what she did you shouldn't have this logic that what a regular sinner has to do to redeem themselves is work to change their lives in huge ways and work to do good if their actions were bad enough

( That seems to be what the fandom wants when it comes to talk about overlord characters potentially redeeming themselves )

But all sera has to do is simply bark orders from a chair while never working to do anything herself or change anything about her life or take meaningful accountability simply because she happened to be born upperclass,

And people act like this is an acceptable desire for her redemption because she happens to be likeable personality wise which I feel speaks to an issue with fandoms in general these days that surface level likeability matters more than actual meaningful actions from a character

So sera does nothing the whole season except sing some sad songs which makes her likeable and people act like this is a huge growth and meaningful form of redemption despite her technically repeating her main sin of leaving the work to others and almost losing lives in hell including her own sister because of it in the finale

Yet valentino and velvet stopped vox and helped save hell and its downplayed by the fandom with "" well you know they are evil and they only did it to save themselves "" which yes both are true but they still actually did something and didn't just hide in their office

They actually had meaningful actions that contributed to the day being saved in the end yet its downplayed either because they are not as surface level likeable or they simply weren’t born upperclass like sera was so she's given more credit for doing objectively less.

I'm only somewhat jokingly exaggerating with the title lmao but being serous she seems to act very entitled when it comes to men recently first off the business with ross where she had a crush but he slept with her step mum

Which sure anyone would probably find that a bit awkward but she and even those around her acted like ross had wronged her for simply not reciprocating her advances its not even like he strung her along as soon as she came onto him he told her in polite terms he wasn't interested

Yet we still got multiple scenes of her acting and even him somewhat acting like he had wronged her and multiple scenes feeling sorry for herself and acting like he was the arsehole for turning her down,

Then just 1 episode ago with billy he ended the short lived relationship with her and while he did kiss someone else which is a jerk move gabby did not know that all she knew was he decided to end the relationship with her before it became too serous

And again nothing wrong with being a bit upset over that but she acted like billy did something really terrible to her by simply not wanting to be in a relationship with her and wished harm on him before she literally found out he had been attacked,

See what I mean? It really feels like she thinks she is entitled to sex and relationships from men who happen to catch her eye and the people around her are encouraging this victim mindset she has whenever she is denied that

Which just seems like the recipe of creating a very unhealthy person to be honest ( Ironic considering her current healthy eating obsessed storyline lmao )

And I don't think this is intentional by the writers to be frank I think gabby's behaviour is just viewed differently than for example if we saw a teenage boy acting this way towards girls who politely rejected his advances or simply tried to respectfully end a relationship.

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I really want the show to go into it and have her actually open up to blitzo about some things if she hasn't already since she has still been somewhat closed off to him over the years up until recently and I can imagine she may have gone through some very dark stuff

That might give blitzo and moxxie a run for their money in the childhood trauma department ( I swear I'm not just obsessed with angst but part of me has always felt she may have been sexually abused in her past

Though I guess that's probably heading into more personal feeling/headcanon territory ) and I feel like her actually openly talking about this with blitzo could be sweet in showing truly how far they've come over these past few years,

Loona needs her own focus episode again I swear lmao.