▲ 3 r/EuroEV+1 crossposts

Brazil's EV boom is exposing a bigger problem for legacy automakers: retail sales, pricing and outdated entry-level cars

I've been following the transformation of our automotive market, particularly the difference between retail sales to individual consumers and direct sales to fleets, rental companies and other eligible buyers.

I think Brazil offers an interesting case study of what happens when affordable electric vehicles begin competing directly with traditional gasoline-powered cars.

  1. BYD is challenging traditional automakers where it matters: individual retail customers.

According to September 2026 registration figures, the BYD Dolphin Mini recorded 9,385 registrations, including 5,886 retail sales to individual consumers — approximately 63% of its total.

Compare that with the Chevrolet Onix hatchback, which registered 7,133 units, of which 3,961 — approximately 56% — came through direct sales.

In other words, the Dolphin Mini sold considerably more units through conventional retail channels than the Onix, despite being a fully electric vehicle competing against one of Brazil's most established gasoline-powered hatchbacks.

The distinction matters because overall registration rankings can hide how dependent some manufacturers have become on fleet and direct-sales channels.

I'm not suggesting fleet sales are illegitimate. They are an important part of the industry. But strong fleet demand isn't necessarily the same thing as strong demand from individual buyers.

And this isn't limited to BYD. GWM, Geely, GAC, Omoda & Jaecoo and other newer manufacturers are increasing competition across different segments.

  1. Toyota and Honda show that brand reputation alone isn't enough.

Toyota has historically enjoyed a particularly strong reputation in Brazil for reliability, durability and resale value.

However, its market position has come under pressure.

There is an important qualification: Toyota's Brazilian production was severely disrupted by storm damage to its Porto Feliz engine plant in 2025. That affected vehicle availability and contributed to its sales difficulties.

But production problems aren't the entire story.

Toyota has also faced pressure to offer more competitive commercial conditions. Its dealership network has reportedly introduced substantial trade-in bonuses, including discounts worth tens of thousands of reais on models such as the Hilux and SW4.

The SW4 is a particularly interesting example. Depending on the version, this body-on-frame SUV can cost the equivalent of roughly US$70,000–80,000 in Brazil.

At those prices, even established Toyota customers may reconsider their purchases.

Honda has a different problem.

The Civic, once a relatively mainstream sedan in Brazil, is now positioned as an expensive imported hybrid. Honda's lineup also includes the City, WR-V, HR-V and ZR-V, with several models concentrated in overlapping price and SUV segments.

These are manufacturer decisions about product positioning and pricing. They shouldn't automatically be interpreted as Brazilian consumers losing interest in cars.

  1. Chevrolet's Spin reveals another opportunity: affordable electric MPVs.

One of the more unusual vehicles still sold in Brazil is the Chevrolet Spin.

It's a relatively affordable five- or seven-seat MPV, powered by a traditional 1.8-liter naturally aspirated gasoline/flex-fuel engine.

The Spin remains relevant among taxi drivers, families, customers with disabilities and other buyers who prioritize interior space, predictable maintenance and practicality.

In September 2026, approximately 84% of its registrations came through direct sales.

Citroën attempted to compete for some of these customers with the seven-seat C3 Aircross, using a smaller 1.0-liter turbocharged three-cylinder engine.

But the Aircross hasn't achieved the same level of market acceptance.

Some buyers in this category remain skeptical of engine downsizing, particularly when they expect to carry several passengers and luggage regularly. That doesn't necessarily mean small turbo engines are unreliable, but customer confidence matters.

What interests me is that the Spin's basic concept could work very well as an affordable electric MPV.

An EV platform could provide a long wheelbase, a relatively flat floor and efficient packaging without requiring an enormous premium SUV.

The Kia Carens Clavis EV in India is an interesting example of a seven-seat electric family vehicle developed for a price-sensitive market.

Why shouldn't Brazilian consumers have more affordable electric family vehicles rather than being pushed toward increasingly expensive SUVs?

  1. Citroën should become Stellantis' affordable electrification brand in Brazil.

This is my own proposal, not an announced Stellantis strategy.

Citroën currently competes in Brazil with models such as the C3, Aircross and Basalt, but the brand has struggled to achieve significant sales volumes.

Meanwhile, Fiat, Peugeot, Jeep and Citroën often compete for overlapping groups of customers, sometimes using related platforms and powertrains.

I think Stellantis could give Citroën a much clearer role.

Fiat could remain focused on high-volume mainstream cars, pickup trucks and flex-fuel hybrids.

Peugeot could continue with conventional passenger cars and more premium compact models.

Jeep could concentrate on SUVs and electrified powertrains.

And Citroën could specialize in affordable BEVs, practical electric family vehicles and compact electric MPVs.

Of course, Stellantis already has Leapmotor, so any such strategy would require coordination between brands. I don't think simply rebadging the same Chinese EV under several names would solve the underlying problem.

The objective should be affordable electric mobility adapted to Brazilian needs, potentially including local manufacturing and a strong service network.

  1. This isn't about supporting China. It's about competition.

I don't think Chinese manufacturers are automatically superior, and I certainly don't believe Brazil should become dependent on imported vehicles.

I support domestic industrial development, local production, engineering investment and meaningful competition.

But protecting traditional manufacturers from competition is not the same thing as encouraging them to develop better products.

Brazilian consumers are increasingly comparing equipment, automatic transmissions, energy costs, technology, warranties and purchase prices rather than choosing a vehicle solely because of its badge.

Traditional dealership groups are also expanding into Chinese automotive franchises, demonstrating that the competitive landscape is changing beyond vehicle sales alone.

I believe legacy manufacturers need to rethink their entry-level offerings instead of relying excessively on brand loyalty, increasingly expensive combustion vehicles and fleet registrations.

My question to this subreddit is: should established automakers reposition some of their struggling mainstream brands around affordable EVs and electric family vehicles, rather than continuing to sell similar combustion-powered models across several brands?

And do you think the Brazilian market could offer useful lessons for Europe and North America, even though their regulatory and economic conditions are different?

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u/joebraga2 — 5 days ago

Der amerikanische Links-Rechts-Maßstab funktioniert für deutsche Parteien nur schlecht

Nach den jüngsten Landtagswahlen ist mir als Brasilianer wieder aufgefallen, wie unterschiedlich Begriffe wie „links“, „radikal“ und „extremistisch“ in Deutschland, den USA und Brasilien verwendet werden.

Vor allem halte ich es für problematisch, wenn amerikanische politische Kategorien fast unverändert auf Deutschland übertragen werden.

In den USA werden Politiker und Organisationen aus dem Umfeld des demokratischen Sozialismus, etwa die DSA, von politischen Gegnern regelmäßig als „radical left“, „far left“ oder teilweise sogar als „communist“ bezeichnet. Schon relativ klassische sozialdemokratische Forderungen können dort als ausgesprochen weit links wahrgenommen werden.

Deutschland hat dagegen eine völlig andere Parteiengeschichte und ein Mehrparteiensystem, in dem Sozialdemokratie und demokratischer Sozialismus seit Langem eigenständige politische Traditionen darstellen.

Deshalb finde ich besonders die Unterscheidung zwischen radikal und extremistisch wichtig.

Eine politische Forderung kann radikal sein, weil sie grundlegende Veränderungen des bestehenden Wirtschafts- oder Gesellschaftssystems verlangt. Das bedeutet aber nicht automatisch, dass die betreffende politische Bewegung die parlamentarische Demokratie oder die freiheitliche demokratische Grundordnung beseitigen will.

Genau deshalb finde ich die Diskussion über Die Linke interessant.

Man kann selbstverständlich einzelne Positionen der Linken sehr weit links, sozialistisch oder radikal nennen und diese Positionen kritisieren. Aber die Begriffe „radikal“ und „extremistisch“ sollten meiner Meinung nach nicht einfach als Synonyme benutzt werden.

Das wird besonders deutlich, wenn man Deutschland mit meinem Heimatland Brasilien vergleicht.

Brasilien funktioniert noch einmal völlig anders

In Brasilien wählen wir Präsident und Kongress getrennt voneinander.

Dadurch können wir einen Präsidenten aus der Mitte-links wählen und gleichzeitig einen Kongress bekommen, dessen politische Zusammensetzung deutlich konservativer ist.

Der Präsident hat durch seinen Wahlsieg also keineswegs automatisch eine parlamentarische Mehrheit.

Hinzu kommt, dass sich viele brasilianische Parteien kaum mit deutschen Parteien vergleichen lassen.

Wir haben eine große Gruppe von Parteien, die häufig unter dem Begriff Centrão zusammengefasst werden. Diese Parteien sind teilweise weniger durch eine feste landesweite Ideologie geprägt als beispielsweise SPD, CDU, Grüne oder Linke. Regionale Interessen, einzelne Abgeordnete, Haushaltsfragen und die Beteiligung an Regierungskoalitionen spielen eine sehr große Rolle.

Deshalb kann dieselbe Partei mit Regierungen unterschiedlicher politischer Richtungen zusammenarbeiten.

Ein brasilianischer Präsident aus der Mitte-links muss also möglicherweise mit liberalen, Mitte-rechts- und konservativen Parteien verhandeln, um überhaupt Gesetze durch den Kongress zu bekommen.

Das hat konkrete Folgen für die Regierungspolitik.

Eine Mitte-links-Regierung kann beispielsweise eine wesentlich marktliberalere Wirtschafts- oder Finanzpolitik verfolgen, als Teile ihrer eigenen Wählerschaft ursprünglich erwartet haben, weil sie parlamentarische Mehrheiten organisieren muss.

Umgekehrt kann natürlich auch ein konservativer Präsident nicht einfach sein vollständiges Wahlprogramm umsetzen, wenn ihm dafür die Mehrheit im Kongress fehlt.

Deutschland ist wiederum ein anderes System

In Deutschland entsteht die Regierung aus den Mehrheitsverhältnissen im Parlament.

Die stärkste Partei muss deshalb nicht automatisch die Regierung stellen. Entscheidend ist letztlich, welche Parteien gemeinsam eine parlamentarische Mehrheit bilden können.

Damit haben wir drei sehr unterschiedliche politische Systeme:

In den USA dominieren zwei sehr große Parteien.

In Brasilien gibt es ein stark fragmentiertes Mehrparteiensystem mit einem direkt gewählten Präsidenten, der anschließend parlamentarische Mehrheiten organisieren muss.

Und in Deutschland entscheidet das parlamentarische Mehrheits- und Koalitionssystem unmittelbar darüber, welche Regierung gebildet werden kann.

Gerade deshalb halte ich es für irreführend, dieselben politischen Etiketten in allen drei Ländern so zu verwenden, als würden sie dasselbe bedeuten.

Wenn eine Position in den USA als „radical left“ bezeichnet wird, sagt das zunächst etwas über den amerikanischen politischen Kontext aus. Es bedeutet nicht automatisch, dass dieselbe Position im deutschen Parteiensystem ebenfalls als extremistisch eingeordnet werden müsste.

Und genau hier liegt meine eigentliche These:

„Radikal“ und „extremistisch“ sind nicht dasselbe, und der amerikanische Links-Rechts-Maßstab eignet sich nur sehr eingeschränkt zur Einordnung deutscher Parteien.

Mich würde interessieren, wie ihr das seht.

Wo würdet ihr im deutschen politischen Sprachgebrauch die Grenze zwischen links, radikal links und linksextrem ziehen?

Und habt ihr ebenfalls den Eindruck, dass diese Unterschiede verloren gehen, wenn deutsche Politik in amerikanischen Medien oder amerikanischen Online-Diskussionen beschrieben wird?

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u/joebraga2 — 25 days ago
▲ 8 r/EuroEV

Chevrolet’s struggles in Brazil may be a warning for Europe as Chinese EV makers gain ground

Europe’s EV transition is often discussed as a competition between electric and combustion cars. But I think Brazil is showing that another question may be just as important: which manufacturers will still control the market after consumers switch?

Chevrolet is a particularly interesting example. Brazil has historically been one of GM’s most important markets, and Chevrolet has produced cars locally for decades. Yet its Brazilian sales fell from roughly 475,000 vehicles and 17.9% market share in 2019 to about 276,000 and 10.8% in 2025.

More importantly, a growing share of Chevrolet’s current volume comes from direct and fleet sales rather than ordinary private retail customers.

Reports about GM’s dealer network have described serious profitability concerns. In Chevrolet’s Region 1 — São Paulo, the ABC industrial region and the Santos coastal area, historically one of GM’s strongest markets and home to its São Caetano do Sul factory — some dealerships have reportedly been selling fewer than 10 vehicles per month to private customers.

At the same time, Chinese manufacturers are gaining those private buyers. In August, the BYD Dolphin, BYD Dolphin Mini and Geely EX2 were the three best-selling passenger cars in Brazilian retail sales.

I think this has an interesting parallel with Europe.

BYD, Geely, Leapmotor and other Chinese groups are no longer relying exclusively on exports from China. They are increasingly localising vehicle production, batteries and supply chains in Europe, while Volkswagen and other European manufacturers are restructuring, cutting jobs and reducing capacity.

This means that electrification does not automatically protect the European automotive industry.

Brazil shows how a legacy manufacturer can continue producing locally and maintain substantial overall registration numbers while simultaneously losing competitiveness among private buyers.

The old question was: “Will consumers actually abandon ICE cars for EVs?”

The increasingly important question may be: “Who will sell them their next car?”

Volkswagen, BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Renault and Stellantis can certainly produce competitive EVs. But Chinese manufacturers combine scale, rapid development cycles, aggressive pricing and increasingly local production.

If Chinese companies manufacture their EVs and batteries inside Europe while traditional European manufacturers reduce employment and production capacity, simply looking at Europe’s EV adoption rate could hide a much larger industrial shift.

Chevrolet’s experience in Brazil may therefore be worth watching from Europe: losing the private customer can happen well before a legacy manufacturer disappears from the overall sales rankings.

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u/joebraga2 — 1 month ago

Brazil is becoming an interesting counterexample in the EV debate: economics may matter more than climate policy

I’m from Brazil, and I find the European debate around EVs interesting because things are developing somewhat differently here.

Many Brazilians aren’t buying EVs primarily because of climate change. Purchase price, equipment and running costs are becoming increasingly important.

Chinese manufacturers such as BYD, GWM and Geely now offer EVs and PHEVs in price ranges that used to be dominated by ICE cars from Volkswagen, Chevrolet, Hyundai and Toyota. These brands are becoming particularly strong among private buyers.

Gasoline is also expensive relative to Brazilian incomes. If you can charge at home, a BEV is considerably cheaper to run. Even public charging can still make economic sense compared with gasoline.

Interestingly, this is happening practically without Tesla. Tesla has no official sales operation in Brazil. Our EV transition is being driven mainly by Chinese manufacturers.

Range is also less of an issue here than many Europeans might expect. We don’t have unrestricted Autobahns, and even 120 km/h isn’t a speed you can maintain on many Brazilian highways. Brazil’s official Inmetro range figures are also often conservative, and some EVs achieve considerably more in real-world tests.

Our biggest problem right now is charging infrastructure. On a long trip, I’m often less concerned about whether an EV can travel 300 km than about whether the next fast charger will actually be working.

The transition also varies considerably across Latin America. Uruguay is electrifying very quickly, while Brazil and Colombia are also moving increasingly toward electrified vehicles. Mexico has so far remained more hybrid-oriented.

For many people, I don’t think climate change will ultimately be what pushes ICE cars out of the market. At some point, the ICE car may simply become the worse product for the same money.

What does this look like in your country?

A quick note: The ideas and arguments in this post are my own. I have difficulty turning my thoughts into written text even in Portuguese, my native language, as well as in English. I use AI to help translate, organize, and improve the language and structure of my own tho

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u/joebraga2 — 1 month ago
▲ 120 r/EuroEV

Unpopular opinion: EVs will win not because of climate change, but because ICE cars will become the worse deal

I'm from Brazil, and I find the German and European debate about EVs interesting because things are developing somewhat differently here.

Many Brazilians aren't buying EVs primarily because of climate change. Purchase price, equipment and running costs are becoming increasingly important.

Chinese manufacturers such as BYD, GWM and Geely now offer EVs and PHEVs in price ranges that used to be dominated by ICE cars from VW, Chevrolet, Hyundai and Toyota. These brands are becoming particularly strong among private buyers.

Gasoline is also expensive relative to Brazilian incomes. If you can charge at home, a BEV is considerably cheaper to run. Even public charging can still make economic sense compared with gasoline.

Interestingly, this is happening practically without Tesla. Tesla has no official sales operation in Brazil. Our EV transition is being driven mainly by Chinese manufacturers.

Range is also less of an issue here than many Europeans might expect. We don't have unrestricted Autobahns, and even 120 km/h isn't a speed you can maintain on many Brazilian highways. Brazil's official Inmetro range figures are also often conservative, and some EVs achieve considerably more in real-world tests.

Our biggest problem right now is charging infrastructure. On a long trip, I'm often less concerned about whether an EV can travel 300 km than about whether the next fast charger will actually be working.

The transition also varies considerably across Latin America. Uruguay is electrifying very quickly, while Brazil and Colombia are also moving increasingly toward electrified vehicles. Mexico has so far remained more hybrid-oriented.

So here's my unpopular opinion:

For many people, climate change won't ultimately be what pushes ICE cars out of the market. At some point, the ICE car will simply become the worse product for the same money.

What does this look like from your country?

A quick note: The ideas and arguments in this post are my own. I have difficulty turning my thoughts into written text even in Portuguese, my native language, as well as in English. I use AI to help translate, organize and improve the language and structure of my own thoughts

reddit.com
u/joebraga2 — 1 month ago

BYD muss nicht mehr Marge als VW machen – es reicht, wenn BYD VWs Pricing Power unter Druck setzt

Kurzes Update zu meinem letzten Post, weil inzwischen ein paar neue Daten dazugekommen sind.

Mir geht es weiterhin nicht darum, zu behaupten, dass BYD automatisch profitabler als VW, BMW oder Mercedes wird.

Mein Punkt ist die Pricing Power.

BearingPoint hat 2.000 Menschen in Deutschland zur Attraktivität verschiedener E-Auto-Marken befragt. Insgesamt liegt BYD nur auf Platz 11.

Interessanter wird es bei denjenigen, die innerhalb der nächsten drei Jahre konkret ein E-Auto kaufen wollen. Dort erreicht BYD 20 % und Platz 5 – vor Kia, Hyundai, Ford, Tesla und Škoda.

Wichtig: Diese Teilgruppe umfasst nur 160 Personen. Das ist also keine Marktanteilsprognose.

Interessant finde ich aber auch die Kaufkriterien. Preis, Sicherheit, Zuverlässigkeit und Lebensdauer der Batterie, Reichweite und Garantie spielen eine große Rolle. Das Herkunftsland der Marke ist dagegen deutlich weniger entscheidend.

Genau hier sehe ich das Problem für die deutschen Hersteller.

Ein chinesischer Hersteller muss nicht dieselbe oder eine höhere Marge als VW haben, um die Marge von VW unter Druck zu setzen.

Wenn der Kunde plötzlich mehrere technisch konkurrenzfähige Alternativen hat, wird es schwieriger, einen hohen Aufpreis nur über Marke und Historie zu rechtfertigen.

Ein extremes Beispiel dafür kam gerade aus China: der neue BYD Sealion 08.

Das Ding ist 5,12 Meter lang und bekommt als BEV bis zu 115,1 kWh Batterie und bis zu 900 km Reichweite nach CLTC. Je nach Version gibt es unter anderem Hinterachslenkung, Luftfederung und LiDAR.

Der chinesische Preis liegt umgerechnet bei ungefähr 29.500 bis 35.900 Euro. Laut BYD kamen innerhalb der ersten 24 Stunden mehr als 12.000 verbindliche Bestellungen rein.

Bevor jetzt jemand fragt, wo man das Ding in Deutschland für 36k kaufen kann:

Nirgendwo.

Der Sealion 08 ist bisher nicht für Deutschland angekündigt. 900 km CLTC sind natürlich auch keine 900 km WLTP. Dazu kommen in Europa Steuern, Zölle, Homologation, Vertrieb und Margen.

Der interessante Punkt ist für mich nicht der umgerechnete chinesische Preis an sich.

Er zeigt vielmehr, welches Verhältnis zwischen Batterie, Hardware, Ausstattung und Preis im chinesischen Markt inzwischen möglich ist.

Und gleichzeitig verändert sich die chinesische Expansion in Europa. Es geht zunehmend nicht mehr nur darum, fertige Autos aus China zu importieren.

Geely und Ford wollen beispielsweise in Valencia eine gemeinsame Produktionsgesellschaft gründen. Ford soll 66 %, Geely 34 % halten. Ab 2028 sollen dort neben Ford-Modellen auch zwei Geely-Elektromodelle gebaut werden.

Damit komme ich wieder zu meiner ursprünglichen These:

Was passiert mit der Pricing Power der deutschen Hersteller, wenn chinesische Unternehmen einen Teil ihrer Kosten-, Entwicklungs- und Technologie-Vorteile mit lokaler europäischer Produktion kombinieren?

Dann wird „wir erheben einfach höhere Zölle“ als Antwort irgendwann deutlich komplizierter.

Unter meinem letzten Post kam außerdem der Einwand, dass BYD selbst Probleme mit seinen Margen hat.

Das stimmt als Gegenargument gegen die These „BYD wird automatisch profitabler als VW“.

Aber genau das ist nicht meine These.

Ein Wettbewerber braucht keine fantastische eigene Marge, um deine Pricing Power zu beschädigen.

Wenn VW ein Auto mit hoher Marge verkaufen möchte und der Kunde daneben drei akzeptable Alternativen für deutlich weniger Geld sieht, muss VW entweder den Aufpreis besser rechtfertigen, mehr Ausstattung liefern, seine Kosten senken oder einen Teil seiner Marge aufgeben.

Deshalb ist meine Investmentfrage inzwischen weniger:

„Wird BYD VW ersetzen?“

Sondern:

Unterschätzt der Markt, wie stark chinesische Hersteller in den nächsten Jahren die Margen und die Pricing Power von VW, BMW, Mercedes & Co. unter Druck setzen könnten – selbst wenn die Chinesen dabei selbst keine Traum-Margen verdienen?

Kurzer Hinweis: Inhalt und Argumentation stammen von mir. Deutsch ist meine dritte Sprache; KI nutze ich nur zur Übersetzung sowie zur sprachlichen und strukturellen Überarbeitung.

Quellen: BearingPoint – Attraktivitätsindex Elektromobilität 2026; Netzwelt – BYD Sealion 08; Ford/Geely – geplante gemeinsame Produktion in Valencia.

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u/joebraga2 — 1 month ago

VW: 74 € gegen 12 € oder strukturelle Value Trap? Brasilien zeigt, was passiert, wenn die Privatkunden zuerst wechseln

So, ihr zertifizierten Wolfsburger Unternehmensberater.

Heute bekommen wir gleichzeitig:

- den berühmten Vergleich 74 € Arbeitskosten in Emden gegen 12 € in Tianjin,

- mehr als 500.000 Fahrzeuge Überkapazität bei VW in Europa,

- vier deutsche Werke ohne gesicherte wirtschaftliche Zukunft,

- einen neuen gigantischen Konzernumbau,

- und chinesische Hersteller, die weltweit weiter Marktanteile gewinnen.

Deshalb einmal eine Perspektive aus Brasilien.

Denn hier könnte man gerade beobachten, wie das Ganze endet, bevor es in der normalen Marktanteilsstatistik richtig sichtbar wird.

🇧🇷 Brasilien

August 2026:

262.052 Pkw + leichte Nutzfahrzeuge

Gesamtmarkt:

Fiat 18,5 %

VW 15,8 %

GM 10,5 %

BYD 9,3 %

Sieht für VW noch völlig okay aus.

VW verkauft mehr als 41.000 Fahrzeuge.

BYD rund 24.000.

Alles gut in Wolfsburg?

Nicht unbedingt.

Denn 46,6 % des brasilianischen Marktes sind Direktverkäufe.

Und wenn wir nur den Einzelhandel betrachten:

BYD 12,85 %

Fiat 11,30 %

VW 11,21 %

Chevrolet 9,26 %

BYD ist inzwischen seit fünf Monaten brasilianischer Einzelhandels-Marktführer.

Bei den Modellen wird es noch lustiger:

VW Polo: 66 % Direktverkauf

VW T-Cross: 60 %

Fiat Argo: 76 %

BYD Dolphin: 12 %

Geely EX2: 5 %

Also ungefähr:

89 % Einzelhandel beim Dolphin

95 % beim Geely EX2

Die alten Hersteller dominieren weiterhin die Gesamtstatistik.

Aber die neuen Chinesen holen sich überproportional die Kunden, die tatsächlich im Showroom ein Auto auswählen.

Das könnte ein ziemlich interessantes Frühwarnsignal sein.

„Aber China hat 12 € Arbeitskosten und Deutschland 74 €!“

Ja.

Das ist ein gigantischer Unterschied.

Aber daraus folgt nicht, dass ein chinesisches Auto 80 % billiger sein muss.

Es muss überhaupt nicht billiger sein.

Wenn ein VW 30.000 € kostet und ein chinesisches Auto ebenfalls 30.000 €, aber der Kunde dort Elektro-/PHEV-Antrieb, mehr Leistung, mehr Ausstattung, mehr Assistenzsysteme und eine längere Garantie bekommt, reicht das vollkommen.

Preis-Leistung schlägt Herkunft.

Genau das passiert gerade in Brasilien.

Und chinesische Fahrzeuge müssen dafür erst einmal über den Pazifik/Atlantik kommen, Importzölle zahlen und hier ein Händlernetz finanzieren.

Trotzdem funktioniert es.

Und selbst die berühmte VW-China-Tabelle zeigt, dass das Problem nicht nur der Lohn ist

Emden:

ca. 74 €/h

Tianjin:

ca. 12 €/h

Aber:

Emden produziert etwa 29 Autos pro Mitarbeiter.

Tianjin etwa 51,3.

Fabrikkosten pro Fahrzeug:

Emden: ca. 4.850 €

Tianjin: ca. 1.078 €

Das sieht für mich weniger nach einem reinen Lohnproblem aus und mehr nach:

Produktivität

Skalierung

Lieferketten

Produktkomplexität

Plattformkosten

Entwicklungsgeschwindigkeit

Automatisierung

Batterie- und Elektronikkosten

Und heute wurde der VW-Umbau noch größer

Der Aufsichtsrat hat den neuen Transformationsplan genehmigt.

VW will langfristig auf ungefähr 9 Mio. Fahrzeuge Jahresabsatz kommen und gleichzeitig eine operative Marge von 9 % erreichen.

Der Konzern prüft die Zukunft von vier deutschen Werken:

Emden

Zwickau

Hannover

Neckarsulm

In Europa existiert mehr als eine halbe Million Fahrzeuge Überkapazität.

Die Modellpalette soll massiv reduziert werden.

Die Komplexität soll stark sinken.

Und zusätzlich könnten noch einmal rund 50.000 Stellen konzernweit wegfallen.

Das ist kein kleines Sparprogramm mehr.

Das ist praktisch ein Umbau des gesamten Konzerns.

🐂 Bull Case

VW besitzt etwas, das BYD, Geely, Leapmotor und XPeng in Europa erst teuer aufbauen müssen:

Fabriken

Händler

Service

Finanzierung

Flottenkunden

Markenbekanntheit

Lieferketten

politische Verankerung

Wenn VW jetzt zusätzlich chinesische Plattformkosten, Entwicklungsgeschwindigkeit, Software und Batterietechnik integriert, könnte daraus ein ziemlich starkes Modell entstehen.

Im Prinzip:

🇨🇳 Entwicklung/Technologie

🇩🇪 Produktion

🇩🇪 Händlernetz

🇩🇪 Finanzierung

🇪🇺 Absatzmarkt

Dann muss der deutsche Arbeiter überhaupt nicht 12 € kosten.

VW muss nur den Rest des Autos so effizient entwickeln und produzieren, dass 74 € Arbeitskosten nicht mehr das gesamte Produkt ruinieren.

🐻 Bear Case

VW schafft das nicht schnell genug.

Die hohen deutschen Zulassungszahlen werden weiterhin von Firmenwagen und gewerblichen Kunden gestützt.

Privatkunden wechseln zuerst.

Die chinesischen Hersteller skalieren weiter.

VW verliert gleichzeitig China.

Deutsche Werke laufen unter ihrer Kapazität.

Und irgendwann bauen deutsche VW-Mitarbeiter chinesisch entwickelte Fahrzeuge, weil für klassische VW-Produkte schlicht nicht mehr genügend Nachfrage vorhanden ist.

Das wäre schon eine bemerkenswerte Wendung:

Vor 20 Jahren brauchte China deutsches Know-how, um konkurrenzfähige Autos zu bauen.

2030 könnte Deutschland chinesisches Know-how brauchen, um seine Autofabriken auszulasten.

Und deshalb finde ich Brasilien relevant

VW ist hier keineswegs verschwunden.

VW ist immer noch die Nummer 2 des Gesamtmarkts.

Aber bei den normalen Einzelhandelskunden ist BYD bereits vorbeigezogen.

Das ist genau der Punkt, den eine reine Zulassungsstatistik verschleiern kann.

Wenn dasselbe Muster irgendwann in Deutschland entsteht, sieht VW möglicherweise noch jahrelang stark aus, weil Firmenwagen und Flotten die Statistik stabilisieren.

Während darunter bereits die Privatkundenbasis erodiert.

Und jetzt die eigentliche MSW-Frage:

Ist der chinesische Umbau von VW der Bull Case – oder ist VW nur eine Value Trap mit 500.000 Autos Überkapazität und einer Kundenbasis, die langsam wegwandert?

Position: noch keine.

Ich suche erst jemanden mit Bloomberg-Terminal und stärkerem Spieltrieb als ich.

reddit.com
u/joebraga2 — 1 month ago
▲ 714 r/opiniaopopular+2 crossposts

Então essa é a invasão chinesa ?

​

A GWM confirmou um novo complexo industrial em Aracruz, no Espírito Santo, aumentando ainda mais sua aposta no mercado brasileiro.

E o tamanho do projeto impressiona

$ Investimento previsto: R$ 4,6 bilhões

‣ Área: 1,74 milhão de m²

⁃ Capacidade: até 200 mil veículos por ano i7 Início previsto das operações: 2029

A fábrica será instalada em Barra do Riacho. em uma localização estratégica próxima a rodovias e estruturas portuárias.

O complexo deverá realizar diferentes etapas da fabricação:

◦ Estamparia

Pintura

JE Montagem fina

E o impacto pode ir muito além dos carros,

◦ Durante a construção: entre 1.500 e 3.500 postos de trabalho

◦ Com a operação completa: potencial de até 10 MIL omnrannc diratac a indirat ac

nicialmente, os veículos serão destinados ao própric mercado brasileiro, mas a GWM também pretende utilizar a fábrica como base para EXPORTAÇÃO

Antes disso, o projeto ainda terá que passar por licenciamento ambiental, preparação do terreno, construcão e instalação dos equipamentos.

A movimentacão mostra como as fabricantes chinesas estão deixando de apenas vender carros por aqui...

Agora estão aumentando sua presenca INDUSTRIAL na Brasil.

u/AdCreative4551 — 1 month ago
▲ 34 r/PoliticalDiscussion+2 crossposts

As a Brazilian, I think Americans use “the left” far too broadly. Do liberals here see the same problem?

As a Brazilian, I think Americans use “the left” far too broadly. Do liberals here see the same problem?

I’m Brazilian, and one thing that keeps confusing me about American political discourse is how enormous ideological differences get compressed into “the left” and “the right.”

From my perspective, a mainstream Democrat and someone like Hasan Piker do not occupy remotely the same political space.

As a very rough Brazilian analogy, I would compare much of the traditional Democratic establishment — particularly the Clinton/Obama type of Democrat — more to the space occupied by the PSDB between roughly 1994 and 2018: institutional, broadly market-friendly, supportive of social programs and generally more socially progressive than the conservative right.

It is obviously not a perfect comparison. American Democrats today are more progressive than the old PSDB on several social issues, and the Democratic Party contains a much wider ideological coalition.

But I would put someone like Hasan much closer to the political environment of PSOL or the DSA than to a traditional establishment Democrat.

That is why I find statements such as “the left celebrated Charlie Kirk’s death” strange.

If some anonymous left-wing accounts celebrated his death, then those people deserve criticism.

But how does that become a statement about millions of Democrats, liberals, social democrats, democratic socialists, progressives, etc.?

If I found some neo-Nazi account identifying with the American right, I would not consider that sufficient evidence that every Republican voter secretly believes the same thing.

I also notice what looks like an asymmetric standard.

A random left-wing account with 20 followers says something horrible and it can become:

“This is what the left believes.”

“Democrats are insane.”

“Look at how hateful liberals are.”

But when a major political figure on the right says something inflammatory, suddenly the conversation becomes much more nuanced:

“He was joking.”

“He was trolling.”

“That’s just how he talks.”

“It was taken out of context.”

“The media distorted it.”

To me, that seems backwards. I would expect the President of the United States, a senator or another major political figure to be held to a higher standard than some anonymous person on Twitter.

Brazil developed something very similar with Bolsonaro. I sometimes jokingly describe Bolsonaroism as a Brazilian “bootleg version of Trumpism” — not because the two countries are identical, but because some of the rhetorical patterns became remarkably similar.

An anonymous leftist says something stupid and it becomes “this is what the left/PT believes.”

But criticism or legal action against Bolsonaro can be reframed by some supporters as “they are persecuting conservatives” or “they are criminalizing the right.”

Again, the individual disappears and becomes an avatar for an entire political identity.

Bolsonaro does not represent every Brazilian conservative any more than a random socialist Twitter account represents every American Democrat.

I also think some American political vocabulary still carries a surprisingly strong Cold War logic. “Liberal,” “progressive,” “socialist,” “Marxist” and “communist” can sometimes be used almost interchangeably, even though they describe very different traditions.

So my questions for American liberals are:

Do you think “the left” has become such a broad label in American discourse that it has lost much of its usefulness?

And do you think there is an asymmetric tendency to treat random left-wing people online as representative of the entire Democratic coalition while giving much more individual nuance to statements made by powerful politicians on the right?

I’m especially interested in how liberals, social democrats and progressives here distinguish themselves from one another, because from outside the US those differences often look much larger than American political language suggests.

reddit.com
u/joebraga2 — 2 months ago

As a Brazilian, I think Americans use “the left” far too broadly. Do liberals here see the same problem?

As a Brazilian, I think Americans use “the left” far too broadly. Do liberals here see the same problem?

I’m Brazilian, and one thing that keeps confusing me about American political discourse is how enormous ideological differences get compressed into “the left” and “the right.”

From my perspective, a mainstream Democrat and someone like Hasan Piker do not occupy remotely the same political space.

As a very rough Brazilian analogy, I would compare much of the traditional Democratic establishment — particularly the Clinton/Obama type of Democrat — more to the space occupied by the PSDB between roughly 1994 and 2018: institutional, broadly market-friendly, supportive of social programs and generally more socially progressive than the conservative right.

It is obviously not a perfect comparison. American Democrats today are more progressive than the old PSDB on several social issues, and the Democratic Party contains a much wider ideological coalition.

But I would put someone like Hasan much closer to the political environment of PSOL or the DSA than to a traditional establishment Democrat.

That is why I find statements such as “the left celebrated Charlie Kirk’s death” strange.

If some anonymous left-wing accounts celebrated his death, then those people deserve criticism.

But how does that become a statement about millions of Democrats, liberals, social democrats, democratic socialists, progressives, etc.?

If I found some neo-Nazi account identifying with the American right, I would not consider that sufficient evidence that every Republican voter secretly believes the same thing.

I also notice what looks like an asymmetric standard.

A random left-wing account with 20 followers says something horrible and it can become:

“This is what the left believes.”

“Democrats are insane.”

“Look at how hateful liberals are.”

But when a major political figure on the right says something inflammatory, suddenly the conversation becomes much more nuanced:

“He was joking.”

“He was trolling.”

“That’s just how he talks.”

“It was taken out of context.”

“The media distorted it.”

To me, that seems backwards. I would expect the President of the United States, a senator or another major political figure to be held to a higher standard than some anonymous person on Twitter.

Brazil developed something very similar with Bolsonaro. I sometimes jokingly describe Bolsonaroism as a Brazilian “bootleg version of Trumpism” — not because the two countries are identical, but because some of the rhetorical patterns became remarkably similar.

An anonymous leftist says something stupid and it becomes “this is what the left/PT believes.”

But criticism or legal action against Bolsonaro can be reframed by some supporters as “they are persecuting conservatives” or “they are criminalizing the right.”

Again, the individual disappears and becomes an avatar for an entire political identity.

Bolsonaro does not represent every Brazilian conservative any more than a random socialist Twitter account represents every American Democrat.

I also think some American political vocabulary still carries a surprisingly strong Cold War logic. “Liberal,” “progressive,” “socialist,” “Marxist” and “communist” can sometimes be used almost interchangeably, even though they describe very different traditions.

So my questions for American liberals are:

Do you think “the left” has become such a broad label in American discourse that it has lost much of its usefulness?

And do you think there is an asymmetric tendency to treat random left-wing people online as representative of the entire Democratic coalition while giving much more individual nuance to statements made by powerful politicians on the right?

I’m especially interested in how liberals, social democrats and progressives here distinguish themselves from one another, because from outside the US those differences often look much larger than American political language suggests.

reddit.com
u/joebraga2 — 2 months ago

Warum wird technologischer Wandel so oft zu einer Identitätsfrage? Brasilien ist dafür ein interessantes Beispiel.

Ich habe bei Diskussionen über Windkraft, Wärmepumpen und Elektroautos immer wieder den Eindruck, dass zwei völlig unterschiedliche Dinge miteinander vermischt werden: legitime technische Kritik und kultureller Widerstand gegen technologische Veränderung.

Brasilien ist dafür momentan ein ziemlich interessantes Beispiel.

Unser Strommix ist bereits sehr erneuerbar. Wasserkraft ist historisch dominant, während Wind- und Solarenergie in den letzten Jahren massiv gewachsen sind. In bestimmten Regionen und zu bestimmten Tageszeiten haben wir inzwischen sogar das Problem, dass Wind- und Solarstrom abgeregelt werden muss, weil Netze und Nachfrage die mögliche Produktion nicht vollständig aufnehmen können.

Für BEV und PHEV ist das eigentlich eine interessante Ausgangslage. Intelligent gesteuertes Laden könnte zusätzliche flexible Nachfrage gerade dann schaffen, wenn viel Wind- oder Solarstrom vorhanden ist.

Dazu kommt eine brasilianische Besonderheit: Zuckerrohr-Ethanol.

Flex-Fuel-Autos sind hier seit Jahrzehnten normal. Deshalb muss unsere Verkehrswende gar nicht einfach

Verbrenner → Elektroauto

bedeuten.

Wir können gleichzeitig Ethanol, Hybrid-Flex, Plug-in-Hybrid-Flex und reine Elektroautos nutzen. Toyota verkauft beispielsweise schon seit Jahren Hybrid-Flex-Fahrzeuge, und inzwischen gibt es auch Plug-in-Hybride mit Flex-Fuel-Technik.

Damit könnte ein Auto im Alltag mit überwiegend erneuerbarem brasilianischem Strom fahren und auf einer langen Strecke zusätzlich Ethanol verwenden.

Eigentlich ziemlich gute Voraussetzungen für eine schrittweise Elektrifizierung.

Trotzdem gibt es gerade in Teilen der brasilianischen Gearhead-Kultur sehr starken Widerstand, teilweise sogar gegen HEV und PHEV.

Und erstaunlich häufig lauten die Argumente nicht:

„Das Stromnetz reicht nicht.“

„Die Batterie ist zu teuer.“

„Die Ladeinfrastruktur ist schlecht.“

Sondern:

„Ein richtiges Auto muss Motorsound haben.“

„Ich will selbst schalten.“

„Elektroautos haben keine Seele.“

Oder sogar:

„Ich mag den Geruch von Benzin.“

Als persönliche Vorliebe ist das vollkommen legitim. Wer einen V8, einen Handschalter oder einen Oldtimer liebt, darf das natürlich.

Aber eine persönliche Vorliebe ist kein technisches Argument.

Beim Ethanol wird dieser Widerspruch besonders interessant.

Ein Teil der eher konservativ geprägten Auto-Szene beschwert sich darüber, dass brasilianisches Benzin Ethanol enthält.

Gleichzeitig stimmen viele Motorentuner und ECU-Spezialisten leistungsorientierte Turbomotoren freiwillig auf Ethanol ab, weil dessen hohe Klopffestigkeit bei entsprechender Abstimmung mehr Ladedruck, aggressivere Zündwinkel und damit mehr Leistung und Drehmoment ermöglichen kann.

Das heißt: Derselbe Kraftstoff kann politisch als „schlechter Zusatz“ kritisiert werden und in der Tuning-Szene gleichzeitig gerade wegen seiner technischen Eigenschaften begehrt sein.

Das brasilianische Benzin enthält wasserfreies Ethanol, auf Portugiesisch „etanol anidro“. Das ist chemisch ebenfalls Ethanol. Es ist keine andere Alkoholart. Der Unterschied zum separat an Tankstellen verkauften Ethanol liegt hauptsächlich im Wassergehalt: Flex-Fahrzeuge tanken hydratisiertes Ethanol, während dem Benzin wasserfreies Ethanol beigemischt wird.

Seit August 2026 enthält normales brasilianisches Benzin vorübergehend 32 % wasserfreies Ethanol, also E32. Premiumbenzin bleibt bei E25.

Und trotzdem bedeutet der Ethanolanteil nicht automatisch, dass brasilianisches Benzin minderwertig wäre. Hochwertige brasilianische Premiumsorten besitzen eine sehr hohe Oktanzahl. Petrobras Podium erreicht beispielsweise mindestens 102 RON.

Man kann also einen relativ hohen Ethanolanteil und gleichzeitig einen sehr klopffesten Kraftstoff haben.

Mit Biodiesel passiert etwas Ähnliches, allerdings beim Diesel.

Biodiesel gehört nicht ins Benzin. Der brasilianische Straßendiesel enthält derzeit 15 % Biodiesel, also B15.

Auch dagegen hört man regelmäßig Beschwerden: Die Lkw seien nicht dafür gebaut, Biodiesel verursache Probleme usw.

Natürlich gibt es reale technische Fragen bei Biodiesel, etwa Lagerung, Wasseraufnahme, Oxidationsstabilität, Filter und Wartung.

Aber Brasilien besitzt gleichzeitig eine sehr große Nutzfahrzeugindustrie.

Mercedes-Benz, Volkswagen Caminhões e Ônibus, Volvo, Scania, DAF, Iveco und andere produzieren hier oder verfügen über große industrielle Strukturen im Land.

Im schweren Fernverkehr sind insbesondere Volvo und Scania sehr stark. Mercedes ist ebenfalls traditionell bedeutend, und bei leichteren und mittelschweren Lkw ist Volkswagen Caminhões e Ônibus sehr präsent.

Bei Bussen ist Mercedes-Benz historisch besonders dominant, gerade im Großraum São Paulo. Dort findet man Mercedes-Chassis bei kleinen Stadtbussen ebenso wie bei großen Gelenkbussen.

Inzwischen beginnt aber auch dieser Markt sich zu elektrifizieren.

Interessant ist außerdem, dass normale kleine Diesel-Pkw in Brasilien seit Jahrzehnten weitgehend verboten sind.

Diese Regel entstand ursprünglich nicht einfach deshalb, weil Diesel „schmutziger“ sei. Sie geht auf die Ölkrisen zurück, als Brasilien stark von importiertem Erdöl abhängig war. Diesel sollte vor allem für Lkw, Busse, Landwirtschaft und andere wirtschaftlich wichtige Anwendungen reserviert werden.

Umweltargumente kamen später hinzu. Historische Dieselmotoren hatten insbesondere bei Stickoxiden und Partikeln erhebliche Nachteile.

Und Diesel ist bis heute strategisch wichtig.

Brasilien produziert sehr viel Erdöl, importiert aber weiterhin bestimmte raffinierte Produkte, insbesondere Diesel.

Und der Dieselpreis beeinflusst indirekt sogar andere Kraftstoffe.

Denn womit fährt der Tankwagen, der Benzin zur Tankstelle bringt?

Mit Diesel.

Wenn Diesel teurer wird, steigen auch die Logistikkosten für Benzin, Ethanol, Lebensmittel, Industrieprodukte und einen großen Teil der brasilianischen Wirtschaft. Brasilien ist riesig und weiterhin stark vom Straßengüterverkehr abhängig.

Deshalb sind Ethanol, heimische Stromproduktion und Elektrifizierung nicht nur Klimapolitik. Sie können auch Energiesicherheit bedeuten.

Dann gibt es noch einen zweiten kulturellen Aspekt: den traditionellen Status deutscher Autos in Brasilien.

Deutsche Fahrzeuge hatten hier jahrzehntelang einen besonderen Prestigecharakter. Viele Modelle kamen ursprünglich als teure Importfahrzeuge ins Land. Selbst der VW Golf wurde anfangs importiert, bevor er später lokal produziert wurde. Audi A1 und A4 waren typische Importmodelle, während der A3 zeitweise in Brasilien produziert wurde.

Dadurch entstand gerade unter Autoenthusiasten eine starke Kultur rund um „deutsche Ingenieurskunst“, bestimmte Motoren und die Vorstellung, ein hochwertiger deutscher Motor benötige möglichst „reines“ Benzin.

Interessanterweise beginnt sich sogar diese kulturelle Bindung zu verändern.

In brasilianischen Auto-Kreisen, denen ich folge, höre ich zunehmend Berichte von wohlhabenderen Käufern, die früher selbstverständlich BMW, Mercedes oder Audi gefahren wären und inzwischen chinesische Premiumfahrzeuge kaufen oder zumindest ernsthaft in Betracht ziehen.

Hier möchte ich ausdrücklich zwischen Anekdote und Statistik unterscheiden.

Die Berichte über ehemalige Fahrer von BMW 320i, 330e, X5, Audi Q3, A4 oder ähnlichen Fahrzeugen sind zunächst persönliche Beobachtungen.

Aber der allgemeine Trend ist inzwischen auch in den Verkaufszahlen sichtbar.

Ein Fahrzeug wie der Denza B5, ein sehr leistungsstarker chinesischer Plug-in-Hybrid, konnte 2026 im brasilianischen Premiumsegment zeitweise sogar etablierte BMW-Modelle bei den Verkäufen überholen.

Und das ist für die Gearhead-Diskussion besonders interessant.

Manche sagen:

„Elektrifizierung ist langweilig.“

Dann erscheint aber ein elektrifizierter chinesischer SUV mit enormer Leistung, sehr schneller Beschleunigung und viel Technik, und plötzlich interessieren sich genau dieselben leistungsorientierten Käufer dafür.

Das zeigt, dass diese Käufer nicht unbedingt wegen des Klimas wechseln.

Sie wechseln teilweise einfach, weil das chinesische Auto mehr Leistung und mehr Ausstattung für das Geld bietet.

Und chinesische Hersteller greifen den brasilianischen Markt nicht einmal ausschließlich mit Elektroautos an.

Der CAOA Changan UNI-T ist beispielsweise ein chinesisches Modell mit 1,5-Liter-Turbo-Flex-Verbrennungsmotor.

Die neue Konkurrenz bietet also BEV, HEV, PHEV, EREV und sogar klassische Verbrenner.

Das ist keine einfache Geschichte von:

„China zwingt Brasilien zum Elektroauto.“

Es ist ein Wettbewerb zwischen Produkten.

Und dieser Wettbewerb verändert inzwischen auch das normale Privatkundensegment.

Im Juli 2026 waren die drei meistverkauften Autos an brasilianische Privatkunden reine Elektroautos: BYD Dolphin, Geely EX2 und BYD Dolphin Mini.

Das bedeutet natürlich nicht, dass Elektroautos bereits den gesamten brasilianischen Automarkt dominieren.

Das Gesamtranking sieht weiterhin anders aus, weil Brasilien sehr große Direktverkäufe an Firmen, Flotten und Mietwagenunternehmen hat.

Aber wenn man speziell auf private Käufer schaut, die ihr eigenes Auto kaufen, sieht man die Verschiebung viel deutlicher.

Und genau dort verlieren einige Fahrzeuge, die früher enorme Erfolge bei Privatkunden hatten, Marktanteile: Chevrolet Onix und Tracker, Hyundai HB20/HB20S und Creta, Nissan Kicks und andere.

Das zwingt traditionelle Hersteller zunehmend zu Rabatten, Bonusaktionen und Preissenkungen, damit ein klassischer Verbrenner gegenüber einem ähnlich teuren HEV, PHEV oder BEV weiterhin attraktiv erscheint.

Und das beeinflusst irgendwann auch den Gebrauchtwagenmarkt.

Brasilien besitzt dafür eine sehr bekannte Referenz: die Tabela FIPE.

Sie misst nicht direkt die Wertminderung und garantiert auch keinen tatsächlichen Verkaufspreis. Sie veröffentlicht Referenzwerte, an denen sich Käufer, Verkäufer, Versicherungen und Händler stark orientieren.

Ein Beispiel aus meiner eigenen Familie zeigt sehr gut, wie wertstabil japanische Autos historisch in Brasilien sein konnten.

Unser Nissan Versa SL Modelljahr 2020 kostete neu ungefähr 70.000 R$ bar.

Das Auto wurde allerdings über 36 Monate finanziert. Wegen der hohen brasilianischen Finanzierungskosten wurden am Ende ungefähr weitere 30.000 R$ an Zinsen und Finanzierungskosten bezahlt.

Diese 30.000 R$ gehören natürlich nicht zum Fahrzeugwert. Für die Wertentwicklung muss man den damaligen Barpreis vergleichen.

Und nach fast sieben Jahren liegt der FIPE-Referenzwert dieses Versa immer noch bei ungefähr 65.800 R$.

Natürlich bedeutet das nicht, dass das Fahrzeug real nur ungefähr 4.000 R$ verloren hätte. Wegen der Inflation haben 65.800 R$ heute eine deutlich geringere Kaufkraft als 70.000 R$ damals.

Aber nominal zeigt es sehr gut, warum japanische Fahrzeuge in Brasilien einen so starken Ruf für Wertstabilität aufgebaut haben.

Mein Argument ist deshalb ausdrücklich nicht:

„Japanische Autos verlieren heute mehr Wert als alle anderen.“

Mein Punkt ist:

Selbst Marken und Modelle, die historisch außergewöhnlich wertstabil waren, beginnen von ihrem eigenen brasilianischen Normalzustand abzuweichen.

Wenn ein neuer Verbrenner 140.000 R$ kostet, ein neuer Hybrid oder BEV aber plötzlich ebenfalls 140.000 oder 150.000 R$ kostet und dabei mehr Ausstattung, mehr Leistung oder niedrigere Betriebskosten bietet, kann auch der Preis eines gebrauchten Verbrenners nicht vollständig davon unabhängig bleiben.

Hinzu kommt ein typisch brasilianisches Problem: hohe Finanzierungskosten.

Der Listenpreis eines Autos ist hier oft nicht das, was ein Verbraucher am Ende tatsächlich bezahlt. Wer einen Wagen über mehrere Jahre finanziert, kann wegen der Zinsen einen erheblichen zusätzlichen Betrag zahlen.

Damit ändert sich die Rechnung noch stärker.

Und dann gibt es noch die Frage der Kraftstoffqualität und staatlichen Kontrolle.

Brasilien hat reale Probleme mit adulteriertem Kraftstoff. Die ANP kontrolliert Tankstellen und Kraftstoffqualität, aber ein Land mit kontinentalen Dimensionen benötigt dafür Personal, Labore, Technik und ausreichende institutionelle Kapazität.

Hier sehe ich manchmal einen politischen Widerspruch.

Ein Teil der wirtschaftsliberalen und gesellschaftlich konservativen Öffentlichkeit verlangt zu Recht mehr Kontrolle gegen gepanschten Kraftstoff.

Gleichzeitig besteht dort oft starke Ablehnung gegen zusätzliche öffentliche Stellen, neue Beamte oder einen Ausbau staatlicher Behörden.

Natürlich bedeutet das nicht, dass überhaupt keine neuen Mitarbeiter eingestellt werden.

Aber das Grundproblem bleibt:

Regulierung kostet institutionelle Kapazität.

Man kann nicht gleichzeitig verlangen, dass der Staat jede Tankstelle eines riesigen Landes effektiv kontrolliert, und grundsätzlich jede zusätzliche Ausgabe für Personal, Labore und Kontrolle als unnötige Staatsvergrößerung ablehnen.

Und genau deshalb finde ich die brasilianische Situation so interessant.

Wir haben sehr viel erneuerbaren Strom.

Wir haben große Mengen Wasserkraft.

Wir haben schnell wachsende Wind- und Solarenergie.

Wir produzieren seit Jahrzehnten Ethanol.

Wir haben Hybrid-Flex und inzwischen Plug-in-Hybrid-Flex.

Wir besitzen eine große Automobil-, Lkw- und Busindustrie.

Und private Autokäufer beginnen bereits, HEV, PHEV und BEV in großer Zahl zu kaufen.

Trotzdem wird ein Teil dieser technologischen Entwicklung weiterhin nicht mit technischen Argumenten bekämpft, sondern mit kulturellen:

„Ich will den Motorsound.“

„Ich will Benzingeruch.“

„Ich will keine Elektronik.“

„Früher war das Auto besser.“

Das sind vollkommen legitime persönliche Gefühle.

Aber sie sollten nicht mit einer technischen Analyse verwechselt werden.

Und genau hier sehe ich eine Parallele zur deutschen Debatte über Windkraft, Wärmepumpen oder Elektroautos.

Man kann über Netzausbau, Speicher, Rohstoffe, Kosten, Lebensdauer, Ladeinfrastruktur und die Geschwindigkeit der Transformation diskutieren.

Das ist rationale Skepsis.

Aber wenn das eigentliche Argument lautet:

„Ich will die neue Technologie nicht, weil die alte Technologie Teil meiner kulturellen oder politischen Identität ist“,

dann diskutieren wir nicht mehr wirklich über Technik.

Dann diskutieren wir über Identität.

Deshalb meine Frage:

Wo endet für euch legitime konservative Vorsicht gegenüber technologischem Wandel – und wo beginnt der Versuch, Veränderung hauptsächlich deshalb aufzuhalten, weil die alte Technologie emotional oder politisch zur eigenen Identität gehört?

reddit.com
u/joebraga2 — 2 months ago

Empresas em recuperação judicial provam que o Brasil está em uma crise econômica, ou estamos confundindo crise empresarial com crise macroeconômica?

Vi uma discussão usando uma lista de grandes empresas brasileiras em recuperação judicial ou extrajudicial como evidência de que o Brasil estaria passando por uma "crise econômica séria".

Só que acho que existe um problema conceitual nessa conclusão.

Recuperação judicial não é sinônimo de falência, e empresas entrando em recuperação não significam automaticamente que a economia nacional esteja em recessão ou crise.

A recuperação existe justamente para tentar evitar a falência.

Uma empresa pode continuar funcionando, vendendo bilhões, empregando milhares de pessoas e até gerar resultado operacional positivo, mas ter acumulado uma estrutura de dívida que não consegue mais pagar nas condições originalmente contratadas.

Nesse caso, ela pode recorrer à recuperação judicial para organizar a negociação com os credores. Determinadas execuções ficam temporariamente suspensas e é apresentado um plano que pode envolver alongamento das dívidas, novas condições de pagamento, venda de ativos, redução de juros ou deságio.

A recuperação extrajudicial tem uma lógica semelhante, mas parte de uma negociação com determinados credores posteriormente submetida à homologação judicial.

Portanto:

recuperação judicial ≠ falência ≠ empresa sem atividade ≠ recessão nacional.

Inclusive, nem a antiga concordata significava simplesmente que a empresa estava fechando. Ela também era um instrumento para tentar evitar a falência, embora o sistema anterior à Lei 11.101/2005 fosse muito mais limitado que o atual.

Casas Bahia é um bom exemplo

A situação da Casas Bahia é realmente séria.

A companhia passou por uma reestruturação que envolveu fechamento de lojas, demissões, redução de custos, reorganização financeira e renegociação de uma dívida elevada.

Ninguém precisa negar isso.

Mas existe uma diferença enorme entre dizer:

"Casas Bahia está enfrentando uma crise financeira."

e dizer:

"Casas Bahia está em dificuldade, portanto a economia brasileira está em crise."

Para chegar à segunda conclusão é necessário demonstrar a relação.

Juros altos e crédito caro evidentemente podem piorar a situação de uma varejista muito endividada. Uma empresa que precisa refinanciar bilhões sente muito mais uma Selic elevada do que uma empresa praticamente sem dívida.

Mas aí entram também questões específicas da própria companhia: nível de endividamento, estratégia de expansão, decisões administrativas, margens, concorrência, estrutura de capital e mudanças no varejo.

A macroeconomia pode agravar o problema sem necessariamente ter sido sua causa original.

E a Braskem torna essa generalização ainda mais problemática

A Braskem aparece nesse tipo de lista, mas ela possui um enorme passivo extraordinário relacionado ao desastre da mineração de sal-gema em Maceió.

Existem bilhões envolvidos em indenizações, realocação de moradores, fechamento e monitoramento das minas e demais obrigações decorrentes daquele caso.

Então como seria possível simplesmente colocar a Braskem numa montagem e dizer:

"Está vendo? Mais uma empresa em dificuldade porque a economia brasileira está ruim."

Maceió não foi causado pelo ciclo macroeconômico brasileiro.

É um passivo extraordinário decorrente de um problema específico da empresa.

E é justamente por isso que acho perigoso somar empresas com histórias completamente diferentes e tratá-las como se fossem manifestações de uma única causa.

Crise empresarial e crise macroeconômica podem estar relacionadas, mas não são a mesma coisa

Claro que uma recessão pode provocar uma onda de dificuldades empresariais.

Se PIB, consumo, emprego e renda caem ao mesmo tempo, empresas vendem menos. Se o crédito fica caro, empresas endividadas sofrem mais. Se ocorre uma crise financeira, refinanciamentos podem desaparecer.

Não estou dizendo que macroeconomia e situação empresarial sejam independentes.

Estou dizendo que a causalidade precisa ser demonstrada.

Uma empresa também pode entrar em dificuldade por:

endividamento excessivo;

decisões administrativas ruins;

aquisições malsucedidas;

perda de mercado para concorrentes;

mudanças tecnológicas;

margens baixas;

passivos ambientais ou judiciais;

expansão financiada excessivamente por dívida;

ou uma combinação dessas coisas com condições macroeconômicas desfavoráveis.

Colocar todas essas situações dentro da categoria "economia brasileira em crise" elimina justamente a parte mais interessante da análise: descobrir por que cada empresa chegou naquela situação.

Se queremos discutir crise macroeconômica, então vamos olhar indicadores macroeconômicos

Se a tese é que o Brasil inteiro está passando por uma grave crise econômica, eu acho muito mais adequado analisar conjuntamente:

PIB e PIB per capita, desemprego, renda real, consumo das famílias, formação bruta de capital, produção industrial, concessão de crédito, inadimplência, inflação e evolução agregada das recuperações judiciais e falências.

Aí podemos discutir se esses indicadores, considerados em conjunto e comparados historicamente, caracterizam ou não uma crise.

Isso também não significa dizer que "a economia está maravilhosa".

É perfeitamente possível criticar juros, política fiscal, investimento, produtividade, dívida pública ou qualquer outra questão sem transformar todo problema de uma empresa privada em consequência direta do governo da vez.

E isso vale para qualquer governo.

Se uma grande companhia toma decisões ruins durante um governo de direita, isso não prova automaticamente que aquele governo provocou sua crise.

O mesmo raciocínio precisa valer durante um governo de esquerda.

Minha pergunta é justamente essa

Até que ponto o aumento de recuperações judiciais pode ser usado como indicador da conjuntura econômica, e em que ponto começamos a confundir problemas específicos de empresas altamente endividadas com uma crise macroeconômica do país?

E, principalmente:

quais indicadores macroeconômicos vocês usariam para demonstrar que o Brasil está atualmente em uma "crise econômica séria", em vez de simplesmente apresentar uma lista de empresas em recuperação?

Porque, para mim, dizer que determinadas empresas estão em crise é perfeitamente defensável.

O salto que precisa ser demonstrado é:

"algumas grandes empresas estão em crise" → "a economia brasileira está em crise".

São duas afirmações diferentes.

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u/joebraga2 — 2 months ago

Is Brazil’s rapid shift toward Chinese EVs an example of how technological transitions can disrupt an established oligopolistic car market?

Brazil seems to be going through an unusually interesting change in its passenger-car market, and I would like to understand it from an economics perspective rather than simply as a discussion about which cars are better.

For decades, the Brazilian market was dominated by a relatively small group of established manufacturers, particularly Volkswagen, Fiat/Stellantis, GM and, later, Toyota and Hyundai. Import barriers, local-production requirements, taxation and the enormous cost of establishing manufacturing and dealership networks created substantial barriers to entry.

What interests me is what is happening now with electrification.

Chinese manufacturers such as BYD, GWM and increasingly other groups are entering Brazil with BEVs and hybrids that often offer substantially more equipment and performance at prices comparable to conventional ICE cars from established manufacturers.

This seems particularly important because Brazilian entry-level cars have become expensive relative to what they offer. A large part of the traditional market still consists of small naturally aspirated or small turbocharged ICE engines, while automatic transmissions and higher equipment levels can move the price considerably upward.

There is also an interesting distinction between total registrations and private-consumer demand. Some traditional high-volume models depend heavily on direct/fleet sales, so a car appearing near the top of the overall sales ranking does not necessarily mean that it is equally dominant among individual retail buyers.

This makes me wonder whether electrification is reducing some of the advantages enjoyed by incumbent manufacturers.

An EV has a very different technological architecture from an ICE vehicle. Chinese manufacturers have large-scale battery supply chains and vertically integrated production, and some can enter emerging markets with vehicles whose price/equipment combination is difficult for incumbent manufacturers to reproduce without reducing margins.

Germany provides an interesting comparison. The transition does not simply mean that Chinese manufacturers automatically replace European manufacturers. Germany's BEV market is expanding rapidly, while Volkswagen Group remains a major BEV producer. At the same time, there are large differences even within VW Group: Škoda's EV sales have expanded strongly, with models such as the Elroq and Enyaq performing well, while Volkswagen itself has faced a more complicated transition. �

Going Electric +2

So I am interested in the underlying economics rather than a prediction that “Chinese companies will win.”

Could EVs be lowering the effective barriers to entry in automobile markets such as Brazil by making the accumulated ICE-engine expertise of incumbent firms less economically valuable?

More specifically:

Is this an example of creative destruction, where a technological transition changes which capabilities provide competitive advantage?

Can vertical integration in batteries, electronics and EV platforms compensate for an entrant's weaker dealership network and brand recognition?

How important are economies of scale in batteries compared with the economies of scale traditionally associated with engines and transmissions?

Could incumbent manufacturers rationally continue emphasizing ICE/hybrid products even if this allows new entrants to capture part of the growing EV market?

And how should economists distinguish a temporary price shock caused by aggressive market entry from a genuine long-run change in market structure?

I am especially interested in whether there are comparable historical cases in which a technological transition weakened barriers to entry in an established oligopoly.

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u/joebraga2 — 2 months ago

As a Brazilian social democrat, I think Americans have been taught to forget how interventionist their own economic history actually is

I'm Brazilian, I follow American politics closely, and I've participated in several discussions with Democrats and other Americans about social democracy, neoliberalism and the future of the Democratic Party.

As someone outside the United States, there is something about this debate that has always seemed strange to me:

Why is social democracy so often presented as fundamentally alien to American capitalism when the United States itself has such a long history of protectionism, industrial policy, public investment and government intervention?

I'm a social democrat. I'm not talking about abolishing capitalism or private ownership.

Social democracy is fundamentally reformist: preserve markets and private enterprise, but regulate capitalism, strengthen labor, provide universal public services, use progressive taxation and prevent economic and political power from becoming excessively concentrated.

That distinction seems to get lost constantly in American politics.

And that's one reason I genuinely hope the social-democratic wing of American politics becomes much stronger.

The United States was never consistently laissez-faire

There is a popular image — including here in Brazil — of the United States as a country that became rich through almost pure free-market capitalism, while Europeans later introduced government intervention and welfare states.

American economic history is much more complicated than that.

Alexander Hamilton advocated industrial development and protection in the early republic. The United States used protective tariffs extensively during the 19th century. Lincoln-era Republicans certainly weren't doctrinaire free traders.

Then came Franklin D. Roosevelt and the New Deal.

Later came enormous wartime industrial mobilization, the GI Bill, interstate highways, federal support for science and technology, defense procurement, aerospace and other forms of public investment.

Even contemporary America returns to industrial policy whenever Washington considers an industry strategically important.

So when the United States promotes free-market ideas abroad while protecting strategically important industries at home, people outside America notice the contradiction.

And I don't necessarily think protecting strategic industries is wrong.

I just think Americans should call it what it is.

The United States has a very strong historical tradition of national protectionism and state intervention whenever American strategic interests are involved.

Roosevelt is one reason this interests me as a Brazilian

Franklin Roosevelt had considerable symbolic influence outside the United States, including in Brazil. His name can still be found on Brazilian streets, avenues, schools and public places.

And many arguments Americans are having today sound remarkably familiar to Brazilian ears.

Brazil's main center-left political forces also operate under enormous pressure from a predominantly market-oriented economic establishment.

Governments can be elected promising stronger social policy, industrial development and public investment and then find themselves constrained by fiscal, monetary and financial arrangements heavily influenced by liberal and neoliberal economic thinking.

We have politicians and economists advocating stronger industrial policy, national development, public investment, progressive taxation and economic sovereignty.

The response is frequently that these policies are "impossible," "irresponsible" or inevitably disastrous.

Even when more interventionist policies coexist with economic growth, employment or rising incomes, that doesn't necessarily produce much reconsideration of the underlying economic ideology.

American free-market rhetoric was exported very successfully

This is particularly visible among the Brazilian right.

Many Brazilian conservatives repeat American free-market rhetoric almost word for word without asking whether the United States itself consistently followed those prescriptions throughout its own development.

That has helped produce another strange political assumption in Brazil:

socially conservative = economically liberal

But why must those positions necessarily go together?

Someone can be culturally conservative while supporting industrial policy.

Someone can support private property while believing strategic infrastructure should remain publicly controlled.

Someone can favor national sovereignty, domestic manufacturing, a strong defense industry and a welfare state simultaneously.

Economic liberalism and social conservatism aren't naturally inseparable.

And economic nationalism certainly isn't inherently left-wing.

America itself demonstrates that the state can create technological capacity

There is also a technological side to this argument that I think gets ignored.

A remarkable amount of the infrastructure behind the modern private technology industry wasn't produced by private markets acting alone.

The early Internet grew out of ARPANET and publicly funded research.

GPS was developed by the U.S. government and military before becoming infrastructure used by billions of civilians.

Early electronic computing received enormous wartime and military funding.

The semiconductor industry's formative development was strongly supported by defense procurement, government research and universities.

Satellites, space technology, nuclear technology and large parts of modern aerospace similarly required enormous public investment.

Even the smartphone illustrates this relationship.

The final commercial product is private, obviously. Apple, Samsung and other companies invested enormous amounts in engineering, industrial design, software integration and commercialization.

But smartphones combine technologies whose development depended at various stages on publicly funded research and infrastructure: satellite navigation, networking, microelectronics, computing and other foundational technologies.

So the historical story isn't:

government did nothing → entrepreneurs invented modern life

Nor is it:

government invented everything → companies merely took credit

Reality is more interesting:

public research + universities + government procurement + private engineering + entrepreneurship + competition = much of modern technological development

And there's another reason public research capacity matters.

Without public capacity, technology can become even more concentrated

If fundamental technological research becomes something only enormous corporations can afford, the alternative isn't necessarily a wonderfully competitive free market.

It can be greater concentration.

Advanced semiconductor development costs billions.

Frontier AI requires enormous computing infrastructure.

Aerospace, pharmaceuticals, nuclear technology and other advanced industries require enormous capital and long development cycles.

If governments abandon research and strategic investment completely, only a small number of corporations may have sufficient resources to conduct that work.

Then technological development becomes increasingly concentrated in a handful of companies.

Public investment therefore isn't only about inventing things.

It can preserve scientific capacity outside corporate monopolies, finance research whose return may take decades, maintain strategic knowledge and create technologies that multiple private companies can later commercialize.

The serious debate shouldn't be:

state versus innovation

It should be:

How should public research, private enterprise and competition interact, and how do we prevent the resulting economic power from becoming excessively concentrated?

Europe shows that capitalism and a welfare state aren't opposites

Germany provides another useful comparison.

Christian democracy certainly isn't socialism. The CDU is a center-right party.

Yet Germany's social-market tradition accepts institutions such as universal healthcare, social insurance, worker protections, collective bargaining and a substantial welfare state alongside private ownership and competitive markets.

An American can disagree with that model.

But describing all of it as socialism makes comparative political discussion almost impossible.

There is an enormous political and economic space between:

laissez-faire capitalism

and

abolishing private ownership of the means of production.

Social democracy occupies part of that space.

That's why I sympathize with American social democrats

I don't want the United States to "become communist."

I don't even think Americans necessarily need to become European.

I'd like to see Americans rediscover something that already exists within their own political history.

Government can constrain private economic power without abolishing private companies.

Government can support unions without abolishing markets.

Government can provide universal healthcare without abolishing entrepreneurship.

Government can use progressive taxation without eliminating private wealth.

Government can conduct industrial policy without implementing central planning.

Government can fund scientific research while private companies compete to commercialize its applications.

The New Deal wasn't communism.

Universal healthcare isn't communism.

Progressive taxation isn't communism.

Industrial policy isn't communism.

Strong unions aren't communism.

Publicly funded scientific research isn't communism.

And perhaps most ironically, economic nationalism and protectionism aren't socialism either.

The actual disagreement is about what kind of capitalism you want

This is why I think the American debate would become much more productive if every economic disagreement stopped being framed as capitalism versus socialism.

You can have private companies, entrepreneurship, markets, competition and wealthy individuals while also having universal healthcare, strong unions, progressive taxation, public education, infrastructure investment, public research and a substantial welfare state.

Yes, that means extremely wealthy people would generally pay substantially more tax than they would under a neoliberal model.

That's part of the point.

The disagreement isn't necessarily whether capitalism should exist.

It's about who has economic power, how concentrated that power should be, what obligations come with enormous wealth, which services should be guaranteed regardless of income, and how much economic power democratic institutions should surrender to private corporations.

Looking at this from Brazil, I think one of the biggest mistakes the American center-left has made is allowing its opponents to define social democracy for it.

You don't necessarily have to convince Americans to import some completely foreign economic ideology.

You could start by reminding them that American capitalism itself has never been as laissez-faire as modern American political mythology suggests.

So my question for Americans here is:

Does the American left need to build an entirely new economic identity, or does it need to reclaim the New Deal, labor and public-investment tradition that already exists in American political history?

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u/joebraga2 — 2 months ago
▲ 1 r/AskUS

If an American automaker develops a car through its Chinese joint venture, is it still an American car?

I'm Brazilian, and I'm curious about how Americans define the nationality of a car — particularly now that GM is increasingly using its Chinese operations and joint ventures as part of its global engineering network.

There is an interesting reason I'm asking this: Chevrolet in Brazil has almost never meant simply "cars designed in Detroit."

Chevrolet Brazil has always been international

GM has operated in Brazil for about a century. Early Chevrolet vehicles sold here were much closer to American products, but many of the cars that later made Chevrolet enormously successful in Brazil came from GM's international engineering network.

Germany was particularly important.

Some famous Brazilian Chevrolets included:

- Opala — strongly related to the German Opel Rekord, but using Chevrolet mechanical engineering and extensive Brazilian adaptation

- Chevette — part of GM's global T-car program and closely related to the Opel Kadett C

- Monza — related to the Opel Ascona through GM's global J-car program

- Kadett — related to the Opel Kadett

- Astra — Opel-derived

- Vectra — Opel-derived

- Omega — initially derived from the German Opel Omega

These weren't niche cars. Several were major successes.

The Monza was even Brazil's best-selling automobile for multiple years.

Nobody here looked at a Monza or Vectra and thought:

"That's actually a German car, not a Chevrolet."

They were Chevrolets.

After Brazilian production of the Omega ended, things became even more international: Chevrolet imported the Australian Holden Commodore and sold it here as the Chevrolet Omega.

Again, people considered it a Chevrolet.

Even our engine history is very different from America's

The Opala illustrates how much the Brazilian market changed.

It had a roughly 2.5-liter four-cylinder and, famously, Chevrolet inline-six engines that evolved from approximately 3.8 to 4.1 liters.

But Brazil gradually moved toward smaller engines.

Chevette had 1.4 and 1.6-liter engines.

Monza and Kadett made GM's 1.8 and 2.0-liter four-cylinder engines extremely common.

The GM Family II 2.0 8V became one of Chevrolet's classic Brazilian engines, followed by more sophisticated 2.0, 2.2 and 2.4-liter applications.

Brazil even had a 1.0-liter Chevette Junior in the early 1990s.

Eventually turbocharging accelerated the downsizing process.

Today Brazilian Chevrolets use engines as small as 1.0 and 1.2 liters with turbocharging.

The current 1.2 turbo produces around 141 hp, putting a tiny three-cylinder engine in approximately the same power territory as many naturally aspirated 2.0 and 2.2-liter GM engines Brazilians drove decades ago.

So a 1.0 or 1.2-liter Chevrolet doesn't sound particularly strange to a Brazilian anymore.

Then came the Onix

The first Chevrolet Onix arrived in 2012.

It was developed with substantial Brazilian involvement as part of GM's increasingly global engineering organization.

It became an enormous success.

The Onix was Brazil's best-selling automobile for several consecutive years and helped Chevrolet achieve a long period of market leadership.

Pickups are somewhat different

Brazil has produced the Chevrolet S10 since the 1990s.

It belongs to GM's broader global midsize-pickup family associated with the Colorado, although the Latin American S10 historically received its own styling, engines and regional engineering.

GM has progressively moved the S10 and Colorado closer together in design and technology.

The Silverado, meanwhile, is much closer to what an American would immediately recognize.

It is an American full-size pickup and is enormous by Brazilian standards.

Our cities, parking spaces and garages generally developed around much smaller vehicles, so American full-size pickups occupy a relatively expensive niche here.

GM even used to build actual trucks here

GM manufactured Chevrolet medium and heavy trucks in Brazil for decades and later used the GMC brand for part of its Brazilian truck operation.

Eventually GM left the medium/heavy truck business here.

Brazilian highways instead became heavily associated with European-style cab-over trucks from manufacturers such as Mercedes-Benz, Scania and Volvo, alongside Volkswagen's major Latin American truck operation.

Ford provides another interesting example.

The Ford Cargo became a familiar sight in Brazil, including cab-over trucks that look much more European than what Americans traditionally associate with Ford trucks.

An American corporation can therefore produce completely different automotive cultures in different countries.

And now China enters Chevrolet's story

For decades, Opel/Germany was an enormously important source of engineering for Chevrolet passenger cars in Brazil.

GM eventually sold Opel.

At approximately the same time, China became one of the world's major centers for:

- batteries

- electric motors

- power electronics

- EVs

- plug-in hybrids

- low-cost automotive manufacturing

GM has also operated in China for decades.

And this is where the distinction becomes important.

GM has Chinese joint ventures including SAIC-GM and SAIC-GM-Wuling.

So when GM uses a vehicle or technology developed through one of those operations, it isn't necessarily equivalent to Chevrolet purchasing a finished BYD, replacing its badges and selling it as a Chevrolet.

GM itself participates in those companies.

Engineering can flow through GM's global organization.

Some engineering and intellectual property can originate in the United States.

Development and industrialization can occur in China.

Chinese engineers can develop solutions for the enormous Chinese market.

And technology developed there can subsequently be used by GM elsewhere.

China may therefore be taking over part of Opel's old role

That's what I find fascinating.

For generations, Brazilians drove Chevrolets heavily influenced by German engineering.

We didn't stop considering them Chevrolet.

We even bought an Australian Holden Commodore as a Chevrolet Omega.

Now China has become another important engineering center within GM's international ecosystem, particularly for electrification.

Perhaps China is beginning to perform part of the role Germany once performed for GM internationally.

Chinese companies are also competing against each other here

Brazil provides another interesting example.

JAC Motors was one of the first Chinese manufacturers to seriously attempt to enter our mass market.

It arrived with ambitious plans, publicity and plans for Brazilian manufacturing.

But China's automobile industry changed extremely quickly.

Today companies such as BYD, Geely and GWM operate at a completely different scale and are putting pressure not only on traditional Western manufacturers but also on earlier Chinese entrants.

So this isn't simply:

"China versus Western automakers."

Chinese manufacturers compete fiercely against each other too.

And GM potentially has an unusual weapon against them:

its own engineering operations and joint ventures inside China.

Which brings me to my question

Imagine GM sold Americans a Chevrolet that:

- carries a Chevrolet badge

- is sold and warrantied by GM

- contains GM intellectual property

- has some engineering originating in Detroit or elsewhere in GM

- has substantial development performed by GM engineers or a GM joint venture in China

- incorporates Chinese-developed EV or hybrid technology

- and generates economic returns for GM through its participation in that operation

Would you call it:

an American car?

a Chinese car?

both?

or simply a global GM product?

And would Chinese engineering involvement affect whether you bought it?

For comparison, I think the distinction becomes especially interesting when we compare that vehicle with a BYD or Geely, where the automaker itself is Chinese.

Where do you personally draw the line?

Ownership? Headquarters? Intellectual property? Engineering location? Manufacturing location? Where the money ultimately goes? Or the badge?

I'm asking because, from a Brazilian perspective, Chevrolet has mixed American, German, Brazilian and Australian engineering for generations.

Now Chinese engineering is being added to that mix.

I'm genuinely curious how Americans see the distinction.

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u/joebraga2 — 2 months ago

Autoindustrie Update #4: China baut Batterien, GM baut Chinesen und VW baut Stellen ab

Willkommen zur nächsten Folge von:

„Die deutsche Autoindustrie hat bestimmt nur ein kleines Konjunkturproblem.“

🇨🇳 Geely: 500 Wh/kg

Geely testet Feststoffbatterien.

2026 erste reale Tests.

2027 Pilotfahrzeuge.

Langfristiges Ziel:

bis zu 500 Wh/kg.

Heutige gute Geely-Zellen: ungefähr 250 Wh/kg.

Nein:

60 kWh werden nicht magisch zu 120 kWh.

Aber bei ähnlichem Batteriegewicht könnte man wesentlich mehr Energie speichern – oder dieselben 60 kWh mit deutlich weniger Gewicht herumfahren.

Geely spricht langfristig von >1.000 km Reichweite.

Bevor jemand Calls kauft:

500 Wh/kg ist Entwicklungsziel.

Nicht nächste Woche beim Händler.

🐬 BYD meanwhile

Dolphin Mini/Seagull:

in China inzwischen bis zu 405 km CLTC in bestimmten Versionen.

Mehr Assistenztechnik.

Dolphin wird ebenfalls weiterentwickelt.

BYD-Strategie ungefähr:

billige EVs besser machen

größere EVs bauen

Hybride überall reinwerfen

Fabriken außerhalb Chinas eröffnen

Repeat.

🇺🇸 GM: „Entkopplung? Welche Entkopplung?“

GM und SAIC:

JV um weitere 20 Jahre verlängert.

Bis 2030 mindestens:

30 neue EVs/Hybride.

Und China wird zunehmend Entwicklungs- und Exportbasis für GM.

Brasilien zeigt schon, wie absurd global das inzwischen wird.

Der Chevrolet Spark EUV:

chinesische SAIC-GM-Wuling-Verwandtschaft,

Chevrolet-Logo,

Produktion in Brasilien,

in einer Industrieanlage mit Ford/Troller-Vergangenheit.

Globalisierung any% speedrun.

Und möglicherweise kommt noch der Wuling Bingo Pro.

Vielleicht sogar als:

Chevrolet Celta EV.

Noch nicht offiziell bestätigt.

Aber jetzt wird es lustig:

Bingo Pro: ca. 4,05 m

Spark EUV: ca. 4,00 m

Fast dieselbe Länge.

Einer könnte Hatchback sein.

Der andere „SUV“.

Willkommen im Automarkt 2026.

🇧🇷 Brasilien hat sowieso aufgehört, Autos nach Länge zu sortieren

Früher:

Hatchback klein.

Limousine größer.

SUV groß.

Heute:

4-Meter-Hatch.

4-Meter-SUV.

4,2-Meter-SUV-Coupé.

4,3-Meter-SUV.

Alles völlig verschiedene Produkte.

Und beim Privatkunden wandert immer mehr Nachfrage vom klassischen Hatch zum Crossover.

Die richtig nackten Verbrenner mit Handschaltung?

Die werden zunehmend interessant für:

Flotten und Mietwagen.

Privatkunde:

„Automatik? Ausstattung? Crossover? Hybrid? Elektro?“

Flottenmanager:

„Hat es vier Räder und Rabatt?“

🇩🇪 Volkswagen meanwhile

Oliver Blume:

VW-Overhead >30 % über Wettbewerbern.

50.000 Stellen?

Kein beschlossenes Abbauziel.

Aber offenbar eine Zahl, die inzwischen groß genug ist, um die Dimension des Problems zu beschreiben.

Dazu:

weniger Modelle?

weniger Kapazität?

mehr Restrukturierung?

🔥 Und trotzdem wird der Verbrenner nicht überall sterben

Bitte unterscheiden:

C-Klasse Basis ≠ AMG

BMW 320i ≠ BMW M

Audi A4/A5 ≠ RS

normaler Porsche ≠ 911 RS

Im Volumenmarkt:

EV.

Hybrid.

Plattform-Sharing.

Kosten runter.

Bei Performance:

Verbrenner wahrscheinlich noch ziemlich lange.

Warum?

Weil jemand, der einen 911 RS kauft, nicht nur von A nach B will.

Er will:

BRRRRRRRRR.

Und bezahlt dafür freiwillig den Gegenwert eines Hauses im Saarland.

TL;DR

Geely: nächste Batterie.

BYD: nächste günstige EV-Generation.

GM: weitere 20 Jahre SAIC.

Brasilien: chinesische Plattform + US-Marke + brasilianische Fabrik.

VW: „Warum sind wir eigentlich 30 % teurer?“

Porsche/BMW M/AMG/RS: BRRRRR bleibt.

Meine Frage:

Was passiert, wenn VW mit der Restrukturierung fertig ist…

…und Geely dann bereits die nächste Batteriegeneration industrialisiert?

Calls auf Batterien oder Puts auf deutsche PowerPoint-Abteilungen?

Obligatorischer Disclaimer: Ich bin Brasilianer, Deutsch ist nicht meine Muttersprache. Die Gedanken und Thesen sind meine; bei diesen Textwänden hilft mir teilweise KI dabei, mein Deutsch zu korrigieren und das Ganze lesbarer zu strukturieren. Wenn irgendeine Zahl oder technische Angabe falsch ist: gerne draufhauen – aber bitte mit Quelle, dann korrigiere ich es. Und selbstverständlich: keine Anlageberatung. Ich bin ein Typ auf Reddit, kein Autoanalyst bei Goldman Sachs.

reddit.com
u/joebraga2 — 2 months ago

Update: Die Autoindustrie verändert nicht nur den Antrieb – ganze Fahrzeugklassen werden gerade neu verpackt

Ein Punkt aus Brasilien zeigt ziemlich gut, warum ich die aktuelle Transformation der Autoindustrie nicht nur als Wechsel von Verbrenner zu Elektroauto sehe.

Auch die klassischen Fahrzeugsegmente verändern sich.

In Brasilien wird „Kompaktwagen“ inzwischen häufig fast automatisch mit den billigsten Modellen wie Renault Kwid und Fiat Mobi verbunden. Das verzerrt aber die eigentliche Einteilung.

Autos wie Polo, Onix oder Fiat Argo sind weiterhin klassische Kleinwagen des B-Segments. Nachdem VW den Gol eingestellt hatte, rückte beispielsweise der Polo faktisch nach unten und übernahm einen Teil seiner Rolle als Volumenmodell.

Davor hatte Volkswagen in Brasilien zeitweise sogar drei Ebenen:

up! → Kleinstwagen

Gol → günstiger Kleinwagen

Polo → höher positionierter Kleinwagen

Diese Abstufung verschwindet zunehmend.

Und genau deshalb würde ich auch nicht sagen, dass der Kleinwagen einfach „stirbt“.

In Brasilien findet vielmehr ein Karosseriewechsel statt.

Viele Kunden, die früher einen normalen Hatchback gekauft hätten, kaufen heute einen höher gelegten Crossover auf einer ähnlichen oder sogar derselben Kleinwagenarchitektur.

Deshalb stehen heute Fahrzeuge wie VW Nivus, Fiat Fastback, Peugeot 2008 und zahlreiche andere Modelle in Statistiken häufig gemeinsam unter „SUV“.

Technisch und konzeptionell ist das aber eine ziemlich breite Kategorie.

Ein Nivus oder Fastback ist beispielsweise deutlich näher an einem Crossover/Fastback auf Pkw-Plattform als an einem klassischen Geländewagen.

Daneben gibt es weiterhin die traditionelle Bauweise großer SUVs auf Nutzfahrzeugbasis:

Toyota Hilux → SW4/Fortuner

Ford Ranger → Everest

Chevrolet Colorado → Trailblazer

Diese Fahrzeuge basieren auf Pick-up-Architekturen und unterscheiden sich konstruktiv deutlich von einem kompakten Crossover.

Das Interessante daran:

Die Nachfrage nach kleinen Autos verschwindet nicht unbedingt – ihre Verpackung verändert sich.

Genau dasselbe könnte jetzt mit der Elektrifizierung passieren.

Ein zukünftiger Fiat Uno oder Palio müsste deshalb meiner Meinung nach nicht versuchen, das Auto von 1995 nachzubauen.

Ein elektrischer Uno könnte wieder das sein, was der Uno ursprünglich für viele Käufer war:

ein einfacher, kompakter und relativ günstiger Alltagswagen – nur mit der Technik seiner eigenen Zeit.

Das Gleiche gilt für Namen wie Corsa, Polo oder andere traditionelle Kleinwagen.

Und hier wird die aktuelle Strategie von Stellantis interessant.

Der Fiat Grande Panda erinnert von seinen kantigen Proportionen erstaunlich stark an die letzte brasilianische Uno-Generation. Gleichzeitig nutzt Jeep mit dem Avenger eine verwandte Kleinwagenarchitektur für einen höher positionierten Crossover.

Das zeigt, wie flexibel diese Plattformen inzwischen geworden sind.

Eine Architektur kann heute als:

\- einfacher Hatchback,

\- Crossover,

\- „SUV“,

\- Fastback

\- oder Elektroauto

verkauft werden.

Deshalb glaube ich auch nicht, dass Europas und Brasiliens Autoindustrie einfach nur von Verbrennern auf Elektroautos umstellt.

Wir erleben gleichzeitig einen Wechsel von Antrieb, Plattform, Produktionsort und sogar Fahrzeugform.

Und das erklärt möglicherweise auch, warum chinesische Hersteller so schnell Marktanteile gewinnen können: Sie steigen nicht nur mit einem anderen Antrieb ein, sondern in einem Moment, in dem die traditionellen Hersteller ihre gesamte Modellstruktur neu ordnen müssen.

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u/joebraga2 — 2 months ago
▲ 3 r/AskUS

“Liberal”, “left-wing”, “progressive” and “conservative” do not mean what many Americans think they mean, what do you think?

One thing I have noticed in American political discussions is how often “liberal,” “left-wing,” “progressive,” and “conservative” are treated almost as interchangeable labels, even though historically and internationally they describe different political traditions.

Outside the United States, liberal does not necessarily mean left-wing. Liberalism historically has strong connections to individual rights, private property, constitutional government and market economics. A person can therefore be economically liberal while being politically center-right. Likewise, someone can be progressive without being a socialist.

The left itself is a spectrum. Social liberals, social democrats, democratic socialists, socialists and communists are not the same thing. Democratic socialism is also different from revolutionary socialism. Social democrats generally seek redistribution, stronger public services, labor protections and regulation while maintaining a capitalist economy.

The same problem exists on the right. Center-right liberals, conservatives, national conservatives, reactionaries, libertarians and anarcho-capitalists are not interchangeable either. They may agree on particular policies while starting from completely different political philosophies.

This becomes especially confusing with the word “conservative.”

Conservatism in the Burkean tradition is fundamentally concerned with institutions, continuity, inherited practices and skepticism toward abrupt political transformation. It does not simply mean opposition to social change or adherence to religious morality.

And wanting to preserve institutions while allowing gradual reform is fundamentally different from wanting to restore an idealized social order from the past.

The first can reasonably be called conservatism.

The second has another perfectly useful political name: reactionary politics.

Religion complicates this even further. Religious politics cannot simply be placed at one point on the left-right spectrum. Christianity, for example, has been associated historically with conservative and reactionary movements, but also with Christian democracy, Catholic social teaching, abolitionism, the American civil-rights movement and liberation theology in Latin America.

Economics adds another dimension. Someone can be socially progressive and economically liberal. Someone else can be socially conservative while supporting a strong welfare state, trade unions or protectionism. Nationalism, social policy, economic policy and attitudes toward institutions do not necessarily move together.

This is why I find the American political vocabulary so restrictive.

The American two-party system compresses an enormous ideological spectrum into two electoral coalitions. As a result, people who would probably belong to several different parties in a multiparty democracy all end up being described simply as either “liberals” or “conservatives.”

You can see this inside the Democratic Party itself: centrists, social liberals, progressives and politicians associated with democratic socialism can operate under the same party label despite substantial disagreements over economics.

The same applies to Republicans: traditional institutional conservatives, religious conservatives, economic libertarians, nationalists, protectionists and reactionaries can coexist under one party.

So my point isn't that Americans are using English “incorrectly.” Political terminology naturally develops differently in different countries.

My point is that American political terminology should not be treated as a universal ideological map.

Once you compare American politics with Latin America or Europe, the simple equation

liberal = left / conservative = right

starts breaking down very quickly.

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u/joebraga2 — 2 months ago

“Liberal,” “left-wing,” “progressive” and “conservative” do not mean what many Americans think they mean

A lot of people who call themselves conservatives are actually reactionaries, not Burkean conservatives

This may be particularly unpopular among the modern American and Latin American right, but I think the word “conservative” has become so broad that it often describes completely different political traditions.

One of the foundational thinkers of modern political conservatism is Edmund Burke. Burkean conservatism is fundamentally concerned with institutions, historical continuity, prudence and gradual reform. It is skeptical of attempts to radically reconstruct society because institutions contain accumulated historical experience.

That is not the same thing as believing that society has morally deteriorated and therefore needs to be returned to some idealized previous social order.

The latter is much closer to reactionary politics.

This distinction matters because today “conservative” is frequently used to describe a package containing religious traditionalism, opposition to progressive social change, economic liberalism, nationalism and support for a particular political movement.

But none of those things necessarily implies the others.

A political conservative can support a welfare state.

An economic liberal can be socially progressive.

A nationalist can support extensive state intervention and industrial policy.

A religious traditionalist can oppose free-market liberalism.

And someone who wants to reverse social changes in order to restore a supposedly superior past can be reactionary without being particularly conservative in the Burkean institutional sense.

The same problem exists when people talk about “the right” as though it were a single ideology.

Center-right liberals, institutional conservatives, national conservatives, libertarians, populist radicals, reactionaries and anarcho-capitalists can all be placed somewhere on the political right while disagreeing profoundly about economics, institutions, religion, nationalism and the role of the state.

Latin America provides an especially interesting example because religious traditionalism has become deeply intertwined with political identity. Brazil historically had Catholic traditionalist and reactionary movements, while Pentecostal and later Neo-Pentecostal movements developed through different religious histories and eventually became increasingly politically influential.

These traditions can now cooperate on moral and electoral issues, but that does not mean they all originated from the same political philosophy.

I therefore think we should stop automatically translating:

religious + traditional values + right-wing = conservative.

Conservatism, religious traditionalism and reaction are overlapping concepts, but they are not synonyms.

And wanting to preserve institutions while allowing gradual reform is fundamentally different from wanting to restore an idealized social order from the past.

The first can reasonably be called conservatism.

The second has another perfectly useful political name: reactionary politics.

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u/joebraga2 — 2 months ago