u/Hour_Trade_3691

So, I assume most of the people here are from SCD. This actually seems to be one of the few subreddits where it seems I can talk about SCD without having eggs thrown on my face, so I just want to get that out of the way first.

I was pretty inspired when I saw someone's post here a while back defending the right and quality of 18LOH. A lot of people claim that while the mind Games are great, the writing is pretty bad or mediocre at best, with the characterizations also not being that good.

But this post that I saw was defending it, bringing up specific examples from within the plot that showed that the characterization wasn't that bad after all.

I empathized greatly with that post, because it gave me a very similar vibe to my favorite piece of media ever- Liar Game. A series that people also say that the mind Games are great, but the writing is bad, and I disagree.

Granted, Liar Game tends to suffer when it comes to the NPC characters. Well, there are a few characters that do genuinely become relevant to the plot, the characters that are actually able to manipulate and outthink others on a high level are very few. Someone who goes into the series expecting every single character on screen to have their own tactics and moments would probably be disappointed when two thirds of the cast are eliminated in Round 2.

Compare this to 18LOH, where apparently even the most minor of characters do genuinely have their own moments. In this fashion, it seems like 18LOH is kinda what some people were hoping Liar Game would be. Pretty ironic how Liar Game is all about the characters having to lie without being noticed, and then you have 18LOH, where apparently the whole gimmick is that if you're caught lying, you're eliminated, and Chen Ran is all about tricking people into lying and then calling them out on it, well being very careful to never actually say a lie himself, even on a technical standpoint. I once saw someone ask what would happen if the NPC characters in the Contraband Game of Liar Game were replaced with NPC characters from 18LOH, And the most popular response was that the most competent of Liar Game characters- Akiyama and Yokoya, would become the NPC characters instead.

It's my understanding also that there are different star levels, With 10 in total and apparently currently the story is on level 7 or something? And apparently these star levels are very well thought out, with the Games getting more and more complicated as they go on. Apparently the latest Game has been going on for the last 300 chapters and still no one knows when it's going to be finished.

And apparently this is releasing at one chapter a day? The author of this must have the stamina of a God, especially if the Mind Games are as good as people say they are.

I do wonder what the title means though. 18 levels of hell. Are there really 18 levels but only 10 Stars?

Got around to watching Episode 22-23 of the English Dub, And I often forget that this is a genuinely good dub, even if one of my buddies thinks it's one of the worst dubs they've ever heard. 😅

What I really like about the dub is that it has its own unique charm to it. I literally can't think of a single line of dialogue that is identical in the sub as it is in the dub, and yet they always portray the same meaning.

Also, the voice actors aren't really trying to be the same as in the sub. My buddy might think English Akiyama sounds like a guy who: 'smokes 2 packs a day,' which I think is unfair, but also, yeah, he doesn't really sound exactly like how you would expect Akiyama to sound like, but I think that's part of the fun- The voice actors are all getting to interpret the characters, how they see them, and of course, how their voice is able to portray them.

I think the voice actor who gets the closest to sounding like their sub-counter part is Nao. In both cases, I'm fairly certain that this is not how the voice actor actually sounds in real life, but they're putting on an overly high-pitched and cutsy voice to portray Nao's juvenile and naive nature.

I really want to know what the hiring process was behind Solario. I think he's probably the Most different to his sub counterpart. And again, I don't think that that's a bad thing, it's just different! In the sub, he sounds much more sinister, whether as in the dub, it very much sounds like they just told the voice actor that he's playing a morally questionable announcer guy, because he's much more enthusiastic. Even just comparing the delivery of the line: 'Seventeen Poker,' in both aversions would perfectly portray what I'm talking about. In the sub, he sounds almost malicious, as he declares: '17 Po-Ker... ' but in the Dub, He sounds like a happy American game show host who's getting a little bit tired at the end of his shift- '17 Poker!!!'

Even still, his delivery at the end of Episode 23 was the one I was looking forward to the most, as it's inherently sinister no matter what, and he definitely did a good enough job. He managed to make it sound engaging without diving too deep into over enthusiastic, or overly sinister... I really need to think of another word other than sinister. In the sub, he says- 'Even the Great Akiyama will be helpless against him!'

In the Dub, he says: 'Not even Akiyama- Great and Powerful- Will be able to stand against you.' You see what I mean? It's different, but it works-

I think my favorite scene in Episode 22 is when Fukunaga has the internal conflict of whether to shoot or not. In the sub, when she envisions herself and Nao both going through the options, they just both flat out say different sentences, but in the dub, they actively interact with each other. Fukunaga says that if she Passes, the Eastern Amy's Victory is all but Sealed, and Nao starts her counter with: 'That may be true, but- '

It's another thing where it's such a minor change, but I appreciate it.

English Nao's screams are also getting better! They were fine before, they're but their delivery is improving regardless-

Nao and Fukunaga's interactions are funny regardless- Unfortunately, English Fukunaga simply can't compare with her Japanese counterpart- In Episode 23, Where Sub Fukunaga goes: 'HUA!' Dub Fukunaga can only match with: 'Ha!' But, can't compete with perfection I suppose.

English Nao interrupting Fukunaga with: 'Okay!- Just- I'm sorry,' It genuinely comes across like she's aware Fukunaga's pissed at her and she doesn't really know what to do.

My only comment about Kikuchi is that he sounds surprisingly similar to Dub Akiyama. Like literally, as they're playing against each other, it almost sounds like they're the same person talking. I actually went ahead and googled if it was straight up the same voice actor, but apparently it isn't. So hey, I guess they're both Goated- I don't think he'll be able to compete with the iconic: 'Che-Ck?!' and: 'Ace- Full-Hous-É!' though.

When I'm on my deathbed, I genuinely wonder what version I'd put on, or if I just have them both playing back to back Episode by episode. You know, assuming whatever doctors are around me by that time are kind enough to set it up that way! 😅

I've seen some people claim that the hype that Nao would eventually Win the Game with trust and honestly was proven false by this Game, as she just stoops to lying just like everyone else.

Thing is, I think that's pretty unfair to say-

Firstly, Nao doesn't resort to lying right away. The very first thing that she does is tell the truth straight out- Begging Kosaka to just cooperate, and trust that they can move on to the next Round and take on their debts.

Everything she says is the truth, but Kosaka has no reason to believe it. None of these three Westies played in any of the previous Rounds, and the only real evidence they have that they would do this is 24 Round Russian Roulette Ending in a Tie when Fukunaga seemed to dominate the whole Game.

But if you put yourself in the mindset of one of these Western Army Members, where not only have you lived a life filled with betrayal, but you've also just gone through your own versions of Round 1, Minority Rule, probably the Downsizing Game, and the Contraband Game- All of these were doubtlessly filled with extreme versions of betrayal and maniacal laughter that mirrors the ones that they fire back at Fukunaga, Akiyama, and Nao.

I was a bit disappointed that they seemed to cut a line from the Manga where, as Nao is begging the Western Army to concede during 17 Poker, Nishida is the only one to actually believe that she's telling the truth, using his first hand experience from 24 Round Russian Roulette and questioning Fukunaga to realize that they are probably legit.

However, his beliefs are struck down by Kosaka, who says: 'That's why everyone calls you an idiot."

The anime also cut out a line where as Akiyama is walking into 17 Poker, Solario says to himself:

"Oh Akiyama. Don't let the fact that this person ended up in the Revival Round pit your guards at ease. To do that with mean a Certain Defeat."

They're small lines, and I can understand why they were cut, but I feel like missing them proved how important they were, because they reminded Us that Nishida, Kikuchi, and Kosaka, aren't just NPCs. They've gone through their own Version of all the Games we've played before, and None of them included Nao.

So, of course they would be the way that they are. Untrusting and heartbroken.

Nevertheless, the whole blinking tactic is sure, lying on the surface, but Nao isn't lying in the same way Kosaka did to her. She never flat out says: 'I put the ball on this number, bet here."

Instead, she simply denies putting the ball in any of the numbers, and only blinks when she's talking about the number she actually put it on.

Throughout the Game, she says: 'I'm telling you, it's not in any of them!" "I won't tell you the number the ball is in." "This won't work."

All of these are true statements.

But of course, she does end up lying on the most minimal degree, because... Well, this is the Liar Game. And ask everyone has said, you can't survive in this world just being like Nao. Not unless everyone else is also being like Nao. You need an Akiyama as well, and just as Akiyama has a Nao in himself, Nao has an Akiyama in her.

I also be like the anime could have spent just a few extra seconds focusing on how Nao and Kosaka played Stationary Roulette after the emotional scene, and once again, I have to say I feel the J-Drama did it better, simply because it focuses on the board a bit more.

Nao and Kosaka are both just betting one chip for all the rounds, and truthfully telling each other what number the ball is in.

It's a heartwarming final scene, because it's exactly how Nao has been hoping they were able to play these games this whole time, and even though it took until the very end, she finally managed to play it that way.

So yes- Nao ended up Winning through honesty and trust. It just took a few little lies on the way.

It would be Legendary!

I feel bad for calling out a specific person, but I obviously won't use their name, and there's no way they'd ever be caught dead in this sub anyway.

I've had a lot of arguments with her. She's homophobic and transphobic, obviously, she's not just an anti-vaxer but believes if you do as much as take literal allergy medication, you're going to hell, no questions asked. She also acts like she knows better than you just cause she's a decade older.

I've blocked her, but I still keep her Facebook visible on my end, because every once in a while, I will see her post something that gives me a chuckle. Once, it was-

"Can someone please recommend me a Christian Therapist? I just found out my previous therapist isn't a Christian so I'm not seeing him anymore because he's not a Christian. Please recommend me a CHRISTIAN therapist if you know any."

Another time, it was-

"When I'm backing out of a parking spot, please let me finish before driving past! It's not hard people."

(For an anyone who doesn't drive, it's funny because if you're backing out of a parking spot, it's your job to give the right of way to any cars that might be passing by behind you, not the other way around.)

She also once freaked out because I said: 'Hey guys,' in a group chat, saying that not everyone in that group chat is a guy, even though I'M LITERALLY A TRANS GIRL AND SHE KNOWS THIS AND DOESN'T CARE-

(Sigh) (Deep Breath)

Nothing though beats this Post I saw-

"I was trying to remember what today was. Other than September 11. I confused it with Remembrance Day, which is November 11, but then I remember when I saw someone's post here. It's because the twin towers happened that day. I know. Not something to forget. Who else was around to remember September 11? Other than me, myself."

Love it. Everything about that post is perfection. My favorite part is the fact that the last 4 words are entirely unneeded, but her subconscious demans that she put them in just so that she had an excuse to use first person pronouns twice in a row for literally no reason.

At least she acknowledged that there Are people who were born After September 11th. Then again, she does have an adopted daughter. I hope she doesn't form an allergic reaction to something because she's not getting an EpiPen from her mom.

Just want to post this here, because I honestly find myself kind of forgetting how incredible it is that this Anime exists. Not just for the fact that it was made at all, but also for how faithful it is to the Manga.

The J Drama and K Drama are both incredible in their own right, but they made a lot of changes. Even before they straight up, changed the entire plot and made up their own Games, there were some minor, but notable changes, even as far back as Round 1.

Akiyama solving Round 1 how he Actually did in the Manga.

The Masked Men actually... Wearing Masks.

Fukunaga's reveal Actually being done how it was done in the Manga.

Fukunaga just overall being exactly how I was hoping she would be.

Nao's Teddy Bear Actually having Rock solid foreshadowing that builds up to the payoffs in The Contraband Game (In the J-Drama and K-Drama, Nao doesn't even Have a Teddy Bear).

Yokoya actually having mice.

Yokoya just overall looking like he does in the Manga.

The Contraband Game actually having all 18 Players.

The Contraband Game actually being adapted properly from Start to Finish.

Revival Round 2 actually taking place in a school rather than an abandoned nightclub (which I honestly though was also really cool).

These changes that the J Drama and K Drama made weren't necessarily bad, and let them stand on their own and have their own unique quirks to them.

But it's also Amazing To actually have an adaption that's as faithful as it is. When the trailer came out, I kept in mind that they might make notable plot changes once again. Maybe the Players the would get shuffled around a bit, maybe Nao would be adjusted so that she wouldn't seem as pathetic at the beginning, heck, maybe Fujisawa would stick around and be a main force driving the plot. But I had to admit, I would be disappointed for every change it made, but they stuck to it. It's not a 100% concrete adaption, but it had the S&M Scene, so what's there to complain about?

Liar Game has always been considered really great in terms of writing the Games and finding loopholes, as well as having iconic (if controversial) Scenes of forgiveness and overcoming hostility with kindness.

However, many people also criticize Liar Game for not being good at writing its characters.

Nao and Akiyama are the best written characters, with both having backstories that explain why they are the way that they are. Fukunaga has no backstory whatsoever and seems to just love messing with people (and in the J-Drama, Fukunaga has so much energy that it makes his complete lack of backstory all the more hilarious).

Yokoya >!has a tiny bit of backstory at the end, but it's not much of anything amazing. There's also the identity of all of the masked guys, but honestly, I never really cared about who those masked people were, which is maybe why I never considered this Manga that poorly written.!<

When it comes to the NPC Characters- They really are interchangeable. Revival Round 2 does a good job at displaying the identities of Nishida, Kikuchi, and Kosaka, But if they were introduced in any other Game, they would likely just be thrown into the pile of other characters that are just kind of there for the sake of it. Revival Round 2 sorta gets a pass because Kikuchi has his kenetic vision, But also because we're seeing these three characters in one-on-one battles. This makes us kind of get to understand who they are.

In >!Pandemic Game, Musical Chairs, or Bid Poker though, There's just a bunch of different players participating, and most of them don't really have anything unique about them. Yes, there are moments where individual and PC characters get to have a spotlight, like Youngjump or Baldy in Musical Chairs, or Kawaii in Bid Poker, but Even in those cases, you get the impression that those characters could have been replaced by literally anyone else if they just happen to be in the same circumstances. Why did Akiyama choose Youngjump to control the Extras for instance? No real reason is given. It's just implied that Akiyama just sorta went with the first NPC character he bumped into. It could have been Ikezoe for all we know, and it might have been the same result.!<

I find >!Human Auction To essentially be a parody of this entire concept. This entire mini-Arc is literally just pointing a finger and laughing at the fact that no one in their right mind would bid on anyone who isn't one of the main Players by this point. In Human Auction, Harimoto and his cult are gone, and the only notable Players left are Akiyama, Yokoya, and Nao, and everyone else are just bums who no one would bid a yen for, and would bid basically all the money they can to get either Akiyama or Yokoya on their team... Or Nao, since Akiyama and Yokoya end up in a bidding war over her. Dang, I kinda forgot how peak the last Arcs are.!<

When >!Mr. Big/Giant points out that Bid Poker is the 2nd Poker themed Game in the Liar Game, It kind of caught me off guard, because it was the first time that we got reminded that these NPC Characters Did indeed play the other Games. Did ALL of these new NPC Characters play Revival Round 2? Or did some of them skip it after: 'Winning,' The Contraband Game? Do Kawaii and Youngjump Know each other from previous Games? It's kind of crazy how This is never touched on.!<

Despite technically none of these being spoilers, I'm going to put up Spoiler Tags anyway-

#1- >!Nao turns out to be a Secret Mastermind!<

>!This Theory Has been thrown around by a lot of people, with a lot of negative reviews even saying that they could only see Nao being redeemed if this twist actually happened. It's kind of a shame that people thought that it was going to take this route, but it wouldn't be that uncommon since there are tons of stories, especially animes, where young, seemingly pure-hearted girl characters turn out to actually have much darker sides to them.!<

>!I'm glad Liar Game didn't go down that route, as I think that allows it to stand as its unique little thing. Sometimes a pure-hearted character can just be pure-hearted.!<

#2- >!Akiyama betrays Nao!<

>!This was something I'm kind of surprised people haven't theorized about. People are much more likely to believe that Nao is secretly planning to betray Akiyama than vice versa. It's funny that it seems that no one is considering the possibility that it could be the other way around, despite Akiyama definitely having more of the capabilities, literally being on record as a convicted con artist, and not seeming to have much of a reason to participate in this whole tournament anyway other than his backstory which isn't revealed until Episode 7. Even when I was watching the trailers for the anime, I was thinking that a person who knows nothing about the story might grow to believe that Akiyama is helping Nao for his own reasons, only to about to stabber in the back when the time is right, only for a true battle between Akiyama and his unofficial student.!<

>!Again, I'm glad the story didn't go down that route, as I feel like there's so many stories where this kind of twist happens, that sometimes is nice for a story to really just exist about two people who find each other, form a bond, and just help each other even though there's not much of a reason to. Like I said- Sometimes people can Just be Pure.!<

#3- >!Akiyama is a figment of Nao's imagination!<

>!I've never seen this Theory posted anywhere, but it's something that I always thought would have been hilarious to be revealed. Yes, it wouldn't really make much sense in a Fight Club a fashion, since many of the tactics being used literally depends on Akiyama being physically present and other characters interacting with him, but I think it would have been kind of cool if it was revealed that all of this story is just a distorted version of what actually happened.!<

>!There's More to it than that, because each of the games in the tournament are based off of a real life thing. Anyway. It could turn out that the Downsizing Game wasn't actually real, and instead nail was actually about to be laid off on her real job, only for her add to manage to turn the tables, and all of this is playing in her head through the Liar Game Tournament. I do admit, it would be quite a risky twist, and would likely piss off a lot of people, but it would have been a very bold Concept.!<

People feel grief over anything. People usually attribute grief to a loved one passing away, but it can also apply to someone ghosting you, betraying you, or even simpler things like your favorite show ending, or a day you had planned out falling through.

The more grief you feel, the more important that thing was to you.

I remember once when I got a text from someone that my step-grandma had passed away. I had no ill-intention towards her, but I was never close to her. I had only met her once, and I didn't have really any positive or negative experiences with her, so I didn't really feel anything. Yet. The people around me were asking how I was feeling as if they were expecting me to be really upset. I told them a few times that I wasn't really close with her, but that didn't seem to convince them.

Meanwhile, I go through brief over people and things that truly were important to me, and people can often dismiss them as unimportant.

There's someone or something in your life that you're truly feeling grief over, and if people are around, you aren't seeming to understand why you feel so upset, it just goes to show how you had an experience that they likely lack or don't remember. Just goes to show how special those experiences were, and how hopefully grateful you will be one day for getting to experience those things.

Here's the thing y'all-

I'm actually not that surprised that people have the reaction towards Nao's character that they do- Often the comments on early Manga Chapters mirrored the comments of the Anime. People calling Nao dumb, before abruptly shifting to saying she should be trusted more than the NPCs of the Contraband Game.

The thing is, I do sometimes wonder what's so different about my brain that I have almost opposite reactions to the majority of people to several of the scenes.

When Nao cried over Fujisawa betraying her, I thought it was an amazingly done scene, and exactly what I was hoping for. I related to her distraught over realizing that someone she had trusted so dearly had genuienly betrayed her.

But everyone else was simply shouting that she was dumb and: 'deserved this.'

Considering the Author of this Manga stated in interviews that the whole reason he came up with this story was because he wanted to come back the world blaming the victims of scams for getting scammed in the first place- Holy crap- Shinobi Kaitani was right on the Money.

In Episode 3, the Scene that made me cry real tears and was genuinely the Best Scene of the Anime, was the scene other people HATED with a passion. Even on IMDB, Episode 3 is the LOWEST scoring Episode of the Season, with a 7.1/10. People have given it amazingly thought provoking Reviews, such as: 'F**k this Episode.'

But also, even when it comes to the Games.

Like Minority Rule- There were quite a few people not just calling the practice round unnecessary, but flat out being offended by it. Stating that the show was talking down to them and treating them like an idiot.

First of all, the practice rounds are important, because they establish how you THINK the Game will be played, before pulling the rug out from under you and revealing what the Characters are actually planning to do. I said this earlier, but there's not a single strategy that is ever used in a practice round that is actually used in the real Game.

It's important to lock in exactly how you think the Game will be played before it actually goes ahead.

The whole reason I'm talking about this is because I've been seeing some other people on MyAnimeList calling 17 Card Poker a stupider version of real Poker, or Poker for Idiots.

I honestly don't really know where these criticisms are coming from. Were people expecting Liar Game to just straight up do real poker?

If you want to consider this version of Poker as poker for dummies, then that's fine, but why exactly is that a bad thing? Most people in the world don't actually know how to play poker at all. I'd certainly didn't know how to play it before reading Liar Game, and yet this dumbed down version of it helped me understand it better than anyone else who tried to explain it to me ever did.

But anyway, I guess we just have to accept that the haters of Liar Game are just on a superior intellectual capacity to us mere mortals, and that if we could even understand 50% of their brain power, we would simply die from the enlightenment that our Brains weren't built to deserve.

I'm not sure if this really belongs in this subreddit, because I don't think we were ever really friends. I'm just a trans girl who met this one guy at this event and we ended up exchanging contact info.

Right away, it was blatantly obvious that we didn't Vibe. This guy seemed to want to text me everyday, almost all day, and I obviously just didn't have time for that.

Also, when it came to organizing an in-person hangout, the two of us were very blatantly incompatible when it came to just organizing a time to meet.

For me, I like to have my hangouts planned. Obviously, if something is like a last-minute emergency, I can understand that, but I'm not one to hear someone say: 'Hey let's hang out right now," and then I just drop whatever I was doing and go find that person.

Meanwhile, this guy didn't even seem to comprehend the ability to plan something an HOUR in advance. He would randomly just call me, and I would let it go to voicemail and then text him, saying I'm sorry I missed his call as I'm busy, but asking what time he would be available to chat later in the day, and he would just respond with:

"Right nowwwww!!!"

I would make it very clear when my schedule was, and then we would call. I tried to make it clear what my boundaries were, but he didn't want to listen. We eventually agreed to meet at a mall close to my place in an hour. The mall was actually incredibly close to my place, and it would literally just take me 3 minutes to drive there, so I was just planning to wait until I got a text from him that he was there, and then I would send a response saying I was on my way and head over.

But I never actually got that text, and he started messaging me the next day as if we never agreed to that meetup. So this guy very clearly had a pretty flaky mind.

There were also weird times where he would just talk to me about random stuff, and say how. Apparently there was this one trans person who he was also getting sexual with or something, and at one point he said that this person wanted to get sexual with him, but he wanted my opinion on what he should say. I told him that I honestly had no say whatsoever in what he did, and that it honestly just came down to how he felt about it. Turns out he went along with it I guess, because he messaged me the next day and said that he did it, and I asked him how it was and he responded: 'It was Wilddd.' I gave him a 👍 emoji and left it at that.

Then there was one time I was coming home after a pretty rough day, and he started messaging me and honestly kind of manipulating me, taking advantage of the fact that I was clearly in distress, and then essentially cornered me into agreeing to-go on a date with him.

Okay. I figured whatever. Whatever this: 'date,' this was would essentially just be a meetup anyway. Considering we hadn't even managed to hang out at all since the very first time we met, I figured however, this meetup went would make it very obvious that we didn't get along. On the off chance that we Did somehow vibe in person, then this: 'date,' would show that.

However... That didn't work.

Literally just a few minutes after agreeing to that, as I was on the bus, he tried to call me without warning AGAIN. I rejected the call and sent him a message saying that I couldn't talk right now as I was on the bus home.

He responded:

'Oh, well I don't mind if you're on the Bus.'

I just didn't respond to that, because it wasn't even worth responding to. I very clearly stated that I was on the bus in the sense that I wasn't available to talk because I wasn't comfortable talking on the bus, and yet he acted like this was somehow me looking out for HIM.

Once I was home, I sent him a message saying that I was available to talk now, and he called. It was very uncomfortable, with him asking me questions like:

"So, how do you feel now that we're dating?'

This question was just so out of left field for me. I had agreed to one singular date, and this guy was acting like this was somehow supposed to cause a euphoric rewiring of my brain.

I honestly can't even remember what I said during that call, but I did my best to remain calm, and tried to state that for me, this was just a date to see how things would work. We hadn't even agreed on an actual time yet.

He continued to message me throughout the weekend, And then suddenly he just randomly said that he was coming all the way from a city 6 hours away just to meet with me.

I said this didn't really make much sense, and it would make more sense to meet up once he was back in my city, but he said he was fine to do it:

"For you. 😘"

He was also talking about how this would be an all-day thing and asking what crazy activities I would want to do.

At this point, I had to shut it down. I made it clear that I wasn't really comfortable with doing an all-day thing, nor with doing various activities.

He then got angry and said that I didn't even respond to his messages, and then blocked me.

A week later, he unblocked me and simply said: 'Hey.'

I said hi back and he said:

'Oh wow, you actually responded.'

I said:

'Well yeah, you blocked me.'

He responded:

'So, have you found anyone else to date yet?'

I responded:

'Not currently looking for Someone to Date.'

He said:

'Ohh.'

And then he never messaged me again.

It's honestly pretty scary seeing how quickly fans of this show turn on each other when having basic discussions.

For example, there seems to be sections of the fanbase that either defend Joe but hate Love, or defend Love but hate Joe, and then there are people who will accuse both or either faction of simply having the opinion they do because they find Joe and/or Love attractive, and there most certainly Are people who think that way, but there are also proabably several people who have their own reasons because- Everyone is different.

Par example, I remember a while ago, I was talking on this subreddit about how Season 3 is the point where Joe becomes irredeemable- Not that he didn't already have a long way to go beforehand, but his behavior in the first 2 Seasons still had hope to be redeemed through intense therapeutic rehabilitation treatments, since his behavior seemed to spawn from intense childhood trauma and a deep sense of loneliness and inability to socialize.

Season 3 though officially crosses the line. Joe has no excuses left- He has a life partner, a child, a nice house in L.A. 's suburbs with mild winters, and absolutely No excuse to go back to stalking and fantasizing about the neighbor.

Yet, when I said all this, I just got a bunch of comments saying that I'm secretly a Love defender and that any sane person would know that Joe felt held hostage by her because she's a serial killer and anyone in their right mind would want to get away from her.

And yeah- I would agree with this argument if we were talking about Literally anyone else... But we're talking about Joe. Love may be a serial killer, but she's also literally the only person Joe has met where he can be completely 100% transparent with zero need to cover anything up. Say what you want about Love and how she's a possessive, impulsive, murdering scumbag- But she is Joe's perfect match- No matter how you cut it.

At the same time, this doesn't excuse either Joe nor Love for cheating on each other. The s*x scene in the middle of the Season where they're both fantasizing about their respective homewreckers is funny, but also inexcusable for either of them, as neither of them are aware of the other cheating on them like this.

The whole cheating aspect of this show is the one I find the most uncomfortable. Say what you want about Beck, but I considered her past the point of no return the moment she cheated on Joe with her therapist. And yet people will tell me that I'm somehow insane and that Beck cheating on her boyfriend who she had no idea was a serial killer at the time is somehow justified.

I just googled it and these Box Sets cost $200-$300 EACH?

I know a lot of people argue on this subreddit and off this subreddit about the morality of each character and what they: 'Deserve.'

I have an opinion about Joe and Love's relationship that a lot of people don't seem to get-

Yes, it was a toxic relationship by default... But it was also the relationship both of them Deserved.

I often say that Season 3 is the point where Joe becomes irredeemable. Yes, he had psychologically tortured, physically harmed, kidnapped, and murdered many people- But all of it seemed to stem from horrific unresolved childhood trauma, entirely mixed signals on what was right and wrong from his various parental figures, and above all else, from his loneliness.

Love is not a good person. She's not someone I defend and she's not someone I would want to be in a relationship with.

But she was Perfect for Joe.

Someone who saw Joe for everything he was, the Good as well as the Bad, with nothing to hide, and yet- Loved him anyway. And shared in his trauma.

It was everything Joe could have asked for.

And yet, he still looked for excuses to mentally cheat on his perfect (For Him) partner, and stalk people again.

First, it was Natalie, and as soon as she was out of the picture and dealt with, he Immedeately defaulted to the next woman besides his wife who was kind to him.

That's when Joe became irredeemable.

The Season 3 Finale is, in my Opinion, the perfect Finale to the Series.

For other people, it might not work. For other people, they might be glad that Love is dead (and I definitely believe she deserved the same fate as Joe), but for Me, I can't help but feel bittersweet about it.

Love's dead body lying there, correctly stating that she and Joe were perfect for each other (Heck, they Both were mentally cheating on each other as they were literally having s*x with Each Other), and music plays in the background as the people she trapped in the cage manage to find her key, but not Joe's, demonstrating how Joe was more ahead of Love- Only for Joe to literally burn the house down and walk away.

It's a symbolic representation of how Joe literally has nothing left to fight for. He had Literally anything a modern person could hope for. A job he liked, a partner who knew everything about his psyche down to the Darkest of his Secrets and loved him for it, and a nice house in the suburbs where he Somehow didn't have to worry about Paying Rent.

Joe had everything, and yet he literally burned it to the ground and walked away from it.

Season 4 and 5 are decent follow-up epiologues designed to show how Joe continued to live even after leaving his perfect (For Him) life behind. But Season 3 is the Actual Finale to this Show and Joe's Character.

If anyone wants to debate me in the comments about Joe and Love actually being awful to each other, remember- I am not arguing that Love was a perfect partner for You. I am arguing that she was a perfect partner for Joe.

I know that everyone keeps talking about the key in his arm, but personally that doesn't bother me.

What Does bother me is the original spare key.

In Season 1, Beck tricks Joe into being locked in the cage. She briefly goes upstairs, only to find out that she can't escape, and when she runs back down, Joe is outside of the cage, revealing that he had hidden a spare key just in case. Is something like this had happened.

First of all, the way Joe brings this spare key up feels a little bit off. He says he did it because he learned a lesson when he was being looked after by Mooney who would often trap him in there. How exactly did he make a spare key? And even if he made one, so what? Did he actually use that while Mooney was still after him like that? If so, he could use the spare key to escape, but he would have to be sure not to get caught, or else Mooney would know he had a spare key with him. He would have to be back in the cage by the time Mooney came back down. The only real reason that he would have a spare key in that cage now is if he foresaw a situation where he might get trapped inside. So fair enough with the foresight I guess.

The thing is, where exactly was he hiding this key? The way he stated it could be seen as him saying that he hid the key on himself somewhere, which would make sense, because hiding it in the cage would be way too risky, especially when he had Benji in there. Sure, you could hide the key in a random page in a random book, and it would take quite a while for any random person to find it, but when Benji was in there, he was straight up tearing the cage to shreds, whipping all the books apart, and Joe showed absolutely no concern at all. So where was this key hidden?

In Season 2, We finally get to see the location of this spare key when Joe actually takes it, but it's not really clear, as the hiding places just barely off camera. It seems to be some loose horizontal metal thing that he just has to pull back slightly, and then the key just falls out. However, this feels a little bit too simple. The horizontal thing isn't even like part of the cage, it's not even connected to any of the vertical metal lines. Sure, people wouldn't think to look there at first, but even if it isn't an obvious hiding spot, why hide it there? I honestly find it really hard to believe that Will that was trapped in the cage for literally weeks, and never once found that key, furthermore, Joe had absolutely no concern at all that he Would find that Key.

In Season 3, The two people trapped in the cage together and managed to find the key while on the brink of starvation after literally tearing it to shreds again, looking in every single jar possible, and it's only after they've literally turned the place upside down and inside out that the key just magically spawns on the floor. So presumably, it really Was in one of those random jars, which again, makes sense for a hiding place. However, if you really are planning to trap someone in the cage indefinitely, having a spare key like that at all would never work. Unless if the cage was the size of a warehouse. The fact that the cage really is just covered in all of these random jars of junk does a good job at selling the fact that it takes a really long time to search through everything, but that's just it. Once you're in the cage, you really do have all the time in the world, and most of the other victims were trapped in the cage for longer than these two, and were constantly given food and beverages so that they could maintain their health. They would have all the time in the world to search through all those jars one by one, and surely would have found it at some point.

I tried making this post to the Deep Thoughts subreddit, but it got Deleted twice, so I'm trying here instead-

You know what inspired me to make this post? I Googled an anime I've heard a lot about.

And I look at its release date, and it was released in 2023. The original Manga was released in 2020- During the Pandemic.

This genuinely blew my mind.

The reason why this blew my mind, is because I feel like I've heard about it forever- and sure, on the one hand, 2023 was 3 years ago, which definitely seems like a long time.

But one of my core memories is of a camping trip I did with some friends in 2022. I'm not friends with any of them anymore. We've all gone our seperate ways and some of us have fallen out, but the fact that I was invited to go on this camping trip thing randomly in the middle of July to a beach that was a 3 hour drive away is an experience I genuinely hold close to my heart.

And because I think of that time a lot, it both feels like a long time ago and also very recent.

To be honest, I consider my life to essentially be split into two different sections. There was the Pre-Pandemic Arc, and the Post-Pandemic Arc. I sorta think of anything that happened Pre-Pandemic as from a previous life that I just happen to remember.

So because this little journey I did in 2022 was Post-Pandemic, I automatically consider it: 'Recent.'

But while I was doing that 2022 thing- things that are in the Mainstream Today like Skibidi Toilet hadn't even started yet.

Heck- AI Chatbots weren't even a thing until November 30, 2022. I was on that camping trip, and the first mainstream AI Chatbot wasn't even considered possible by most people on the Planet.

I know this tangent sounds like it has little to do with my post, but my point is- While you were experiencing one of the best days of your life, someone else was experiencing the worst. And vice versa.

I often look at people I interact with today, and wonder what they were doing while I was doing a random gym class in Grade 2. What were they doing while I was crying about banging knee on the table when I was 6 years old? What were they doing when I played the Mouse Trap Board Game for the first time? While I was blowing my candles out on my 5th Birthday cake? While I was yelling at my Grandpa for being a boomer? Would we have been friends if we knew each other back then? Would we be enemies? How would that change who either of us Are?

Every experience of your life is happening at the same time as an experience held by literally everyone else on the planet, and I know I'm stating the obvious- But how many times do you stop and realize that?

When you meet someone, whether it's for the first time or not, remember that there are literally a million things that they've gone through that you will probably never hear about. Likewise, there's a million things that You have gone through that you will probably never tell them about.

I try to keep in mind- When you meet someone- Whether they're happy or sad- Pretend like they just wrestled a Bear just before seeing you.