u/Apprehensive_Ring_39

I can't tell if it's just a media literacy thing,a impatience thing or what but it just feels like nowadays, character development and character growth just doesn't exist in discussions.

Characters are never allowed to make mistakes or the wrong choice here and there ,characters are never allowed to be wrong and more importantly, characters(specifically characters meant to be good people and such)are never allowed to make mistakes due to their trauma and backstories but villains will be glazed like motherfuckers despite being 10X worse.

This shit is genuinely why I feel like shows like Avatar or even Adventure Time could not be watched today cause you will have people labeling certain characters as genuinely awful and irredeemable people over fucking mistakes,like..Holy shit, are y'all incapable of letting characters fuck up and therefore Grow?

So many people just straight up hate character growth and development, you're either meant to be a terrible person(aka a villain or asshole)from the start or you're more or less supposed to be automatically perfect from the jump,no in between.

You can't be a good person who makes mistakes due to their flaws, you can't be a asshole character who starts off like that and then develop into a better person, you just can't cause people will label authors and writers as abuse apologists.

It's honestly a shame and you don't have to like a character to acknowledge their growth and development.

You can dislike a character and still,at least ,acknowledge that they've grown and changed as a person

Those 2 statements aren't mutually exclusive.

First Example, Hazbin Hotel and Helluva Boss.

I know those shows are controversial, not a ton of people are fans of those shows but whatever.

I will see people who don't even like the show and even people who like it call characters like Charlie and Stolas these awful and horrendous people..over mistakes due to trauma and issues that have been happening for a long time.

Yes Charlie fucked up in S2,yes So did Stolas but ummm,I just want to remind you all this.

WE ARE IN THE SECOND FUCKING SEASON.

Like we're not even at the end.

Hazbin Hotel is supposed to have 5 full seasons(we have 3 seasons left)and Helluva Boss with 4(2 seasons left)so why are people expecting fully realized character arcs and development in the second season of the story?

That's like..30%(50% for Helluva).

Also it gets to a point where I think people are just borderline ignoring things just to fit their agenda.

Ignore the fact that Charlie was dealing with just getting out of stopping a genocide with her friends and one of her friends fucking DIED and one of her close pets in front of her eyes and ignore the fact that she was Getting borderline HARASSED by a white CEO narcissistic sociopath and slandering her for God knows how long.

also people be acting like she was the one who exposed Angel's secret..That was not her!

Did she handle it well?No but It's also like people ignore the fact that she realized her mistakes.

People will straight up be like "oh that wasn't deserved" like WHAT THE FUCK DO Y'ALL WANT FROM HER AT THIS POINT?

People just want her to be automatically dealing with her flaws while ignoring the entire cast hasn't sorted out their issues and problems, so why is she singled out?!

And people will defend that with "oh well,we just think she's boring/uninteresting" how does that involve and relegate to the conversation at all?

Stolas especially cause I swear, people will be like "oh Stolas is some hypocrite" and "he's so unaware and oblivious and dumb to how he comes off to Blitz" THE STORY AGREES WITH YOU.

Those are very clear things called character flaws, character conflict, set up and all that.

The story never acts like he's in the complete right and he literally lost everything from his status to his house to his FUCKING Daughter!

And also ,We're not even on S3 yet!

I could go on and on but next is the topic on Endeavor and Bakugou to a lesser extent(but trust me,a lot of bad takes are on him,bad takes on Enji are just way more common)

Bakugou is so annoyingly controversial cause people are still so stuck in the past of their own childhood bullies that they will not be satisfied with his development.

That's kind of sometimes the problem with being a popular character.

You get a lot of people demonizing you and you also have a good amount of people babying you and treating you like you did nothing wrong and both those sides are wrong.

This guy will realize his flaws, actively Stop bullying deku,improve and become a better person, apologize and even FUCKING DIE FOR HIM..and that still won't be enough, like at this point, I think y'all are just hating for the sake of hating.

You're basically projecting your feelings of hate from your bullies when you were a kid onto him and Deku.

Like if you don't like him,that's up to you but don't just ignore his growth and development to fit your agenda.

Endeavor as well,and people ignore the fact that the story never forces to forgive him.

It's not saying "oh Forgive and ignore what he did" ,No,the story makes it crystal clear he fucked up tremendously and ruined his family for his own selfishness and pride and hurbis,that's the Point!

His arc isn't a redemption but a Atonement!

He is literally atoning and making up for everything that he's done!

Thats why he made a house for Rei and the kids to live in without him, that's why he took on the responsibility to stopping Touya with Shoto,that's why he wasn't upset or mad when Natsuo disowned him and Shoto more or less hasn't fully forgiven him.

He basically lost a good chunk of his family and he has no one to blame but himself but the story makes his flaws and actions clear and this is coming from someone who isn't even a fan of him!

Like if you don't like and even hate him, that's fine but at the same time,why are you ignoring shit?

Finally...Korra from L.O.K and Mark from Invincible and shit Korra gets doesn't even make sense cause I'll see people call her a fraud..then go and call her a Mary Sue.

LIKE WHICH IS IT?

SHE CAN'T BE BOTH.

It's like for both these characters, people will ignore their arcs and development and growth and the amount of utter bullshit that they have to go through to in order to get where they had to be and so many out there are just like "oh suck it up and walk it off "OK,LET'S see you do any better in the positions and situations and pain they go through!

It's genuinely pissing me off how people will only accept a character's arc and development if they're either always flawed and awful from start to finish or are just a completely complete and perfect person.

Are y'all aware that you need to fuck up and mess up in order to grow and develop into your best self,right?

Everyone has flaws and Everyone makes mistakes but people should be allowed to make mistakes, learn from them and change for the better.

Have we just gotten so much more immature and black and white?

I could genuinely dislike a character and still acknowledge they grew and developed and still would also get upset if they got Mischaracterized and their arc and overall growth/change just got ignored.

Also I wouldn't even say it's a media literacy problem but a lot of people just have gotten so immature and black and white or they're just teenagers and haven't grown up yet.

Also a character doesn't have to be likable off the match in order to grow and develop into a person..take Rex from Invincible.

He was frankly a huge dick when we first saw him and what we see is him cheating on his girlfriend for Dupli-Kate.

But guess what?

He grew and developed and changed as a person and overall matured and became a greater young man people were proud to honor.

He started off unlikable but became likable due to growth and change,that's kinda how a character arc works.

A-Train from The Boys is another example of a character who started off kinda unlikable but grew and developed and changed into a better person and better man due to, you know, a character arc.

Not all characters have to start out likable to grow and change into someone likable.

Sorry for getting so heated but still.

I can't tell if it's just a media literacy thing,a impatience thing or what but it just feels like nowadays, character development and character growth just doesn't exist in discussions.

Characters are never allowed to make mistakes or the wrong choice here and there ,characters are never allowed to be wrong and more importantly, characters(specifically characters meant to be good people and such)are never allowed to make mistakes due to their trauma and backstories but villains will be glazed like motherfuckers despite being 10X worse.

This shit is genuinely why I feel like shows like Avatar or even Adventure Time could not be watched today cause you will have people labeling certain characters as genuinely awful and irredeemable people over fucking mistakes,like..Holy shit, are y'all incapable of letting characters fuck up and therefore Grow?

So many people just straight up hate character growth and development, you're either meant to be a terrible person(aka a villain or asshole)from the start or you're more or less supposed to be automatically perfect from the jump,no in between.

You can't be a good person who makes mistakes due to their flaws, you can't be a asshole character who starts off like that and then develop into a better person, you just can't cause people will label authors and writers as abuse apologists.

First Example, Hazbin Hotel and Helluva Boss.

I know those shows are controversial, whatever but I will see people who don't even like the show and even people who like it call characters like Charlie and Stolas these awful and horrendous people..over mistakes due to trauma and issues that have been happening for a long time.

Yes Charlie fucked up in S2,yes So did Stolas but ummm,I just want to remind you all this.

WE ARE IN THE SECOND FUCKING SEASON.

Hazbin Hotel is supposed to have 5 full seasons(we have 3 seasons left)and Helluva Boss with 4(2 seasons left)so why are people expecting fully realized character arcs and development in the second season of the story?

That's like..30%(50% for Helluva).

Also it gets to a point where I think people are just borderline ignoring things just to fit their agenda.

Ignore the fact that Charlie was dealing with just getting out of stopping a genocide with her friends and one of her friends fucking DIED and one of her close pets in front of her eyes and ignore the fact that she was Getting borderline HARASSED by a white CEO narcissistic sociopath and slandering her for God knows how long.

also people be acting like she was the one who exposed Angel's secret..That was not her!

Did she handle it well?No but It's also like people ignore the fact that she realized her mistakes.

People will straight up be like "oh that wasn't deserved" like WHAT THE FUCK DO Y'ALL WANT FROM HER AT THIS POINT?

People just want her to be automatically dealing with her flaws while ignoring the entire cast hasn't sorted out their issues and problems, so why is she singled out?!

And people will defend that with "oh well,we just think she's boring/uninteresting" how does that involve and relegate to the conversation at all?

Stolas especially cause I swear, people will be like "oh Stolas is some hypocrite" and "he's so unaware and oblivious and dumb to how he comes off to Blitz" THE STORY AGREES WITH YOU.

Those are very clear things called character flaws, character conflict, set up and all that.

The story never acts like he's in the complete right and he literally lost everything from his status to his house to his FUCKING Daughter!

And also ,We're not even on S3 yet!

I could go on and on but next is the topic on Bakugou.

Bakugou is so annoyingly controversial cause people are still so stuck in the past of their own childhood bullies that they will not be satisfied with his development.

This guy will realize his flaws, actively Stop bullying deku,improve and become a better person, apologize and even FUCKING DIE FOR HIM..and that still won't be enough, like at this point, I think y'all are just hating for the sake of hating.

You're basically projecting your feelings of hate from your bullies when you were a kid onto him and Deku.

Endeavor as well,and people ignore the fact that the story never forces to forgive him.

It's not saying "oh Forgive and ignore what he did" ,No,the story makes it crystal clear he fucked up tremendously and ruined his family for his own selfishness and pride and hurbis,that's the Point!

His arc isn't a redemption but a Atonement!

He is literally atoning and making up for everything that he's done!

Thats why he made a house for Rei and the kids to live in without him, that's why he took on the responsibility to stopping Touya with Shoto,that's why he wasn't upset or mad when Natsuo disowned him and Shoto more or less hasn't fully forgiven him.

He basically lost a good chunk of his family and he has no one to blame but himself but the story makes his flaws and actions clear and this is coming from someone who isn't even a fan of him!

Finally...Korra from L.O.K and Mark from Invincible and shit Korra gets doesn't even make sense cause I'll see people call her a fraud..then go and call her a Mary Sue.

LIKE WHICH IS IT?

SHE CAN'T BE BOTH.

It's like for both these characters, people will ignore their arcs and development and growth and the amount of utter bullshit that they have to go through to in order to get where they had to be and so many out there are just like "oh suck it up and walk it off "OK,LET'S see you do any better in the positions and situations and pain they go through!

It's genuinely pissing me off how people will only accept a character's arc and development if they're either always flawed and awful from start to finish or are just a completely complete and perfect person.

Are y'all aware that you need to fuck up and mess up in order to grow and develop into your best self,right?!

Have we just gotten so much more immature and black and white?

Gonna be real, that annoys me a lot is when a character is genuinely OP as hell or has Extremely OP powers but the writers poor planning and foolishness requires them to nerf them constantly and constantly make them lose and struggle against opponents that they realistically should just be able to strike down.

It just has me asking what even is the point of making them this OP/broken and giving them these powers if you're gonna just nerf them/not let them be as strong as they realistically should..all it does is it makes you come as incredibly shortsighted.

The first example for me is DC with Flash and Superspeedsters in general..speedsters and super-speed in general and i just feel like they should let the flash overall be O.P instead of constantly nerfing them and letting him(and speedsters in general)be O.P and Powerful instead of constantly having to nerf and make him weak and suddenly struggling against people who should he realistically deal with.

And before you say "oh that's not engaging or fun enough if he easily deals with his foes" Ok..just give him stronger opponents or let the conflicts not be as easy as defeating the bad guys and such.

Like Batman could easily beat people like Joker or Two-Face,etc but the conflict doesn't end with them.

Another example and it's more obvious..is The Boys with Starlight.

Like..she literally has the power to control and summon light and if you've seen other Media and even Pokemon,you know Light could be stupidly O.P and I dunno why she can't just fucking fry The Deep into fish sticks when his powers are just he has super strength,swimming and talking to sea life + he's kinda durable.

She realistically should just fry him but she has to be nerfed with dumb glowing eyes when she realistically should be stronger.

Another example is Marie from GenV and she was constantly hyped up and brought up to be as strong and versatile as Homelander and she could easily have been a major player for Season 5 but for some reason, the writers just threw her out the plot?

Like she only got kicked out and hit with the "oh you can't control your powers yet" shtick cause she's too broken.

The writers wrote themselves in a corner and got cold feet and you got Kirpke making up sloppy and even lazy excuses.

I genuinely don't get why so many writers are afraid of letting their O.P Characters actually be O.P instead of constantly having to nerf and write them out the plot and all it does it just make writers look lazy.

Gonna be real,I don't care if a character develops and grows forwards or backwards due to the trauma the writers give them but if all you're doing to one of your characters is doing nothing giving them constant trauma and pain over and over with no character development or nothing..then that's not good writing, that's just torture porn.

A couple of writers seem to think that just giving your characters trauma and tragedy is enough to make them a interesting and developed character and to that,I say No cause you're not actually doing anything with it.

You're just torturing your MC or character(s)regardless cause you don't know where else to take your character, so you feel like giving them nothing but trauma and pain and suffering is enough to make them a interesting character.

It sometimes will come off as you having something against said character.

Spiderman currently is one of the main examples of this cause at this point ,I don't think I've ever seen a group of writers so allergic to their main hero being happy and even dumber that they seem to think that them being happy will make him less "relatable".

Spiderman is allowed to suffer but he's also allowed to rise above the suffering.

He's all to have a good life and happy moments and such but if all he's doing is suffering.

And we go onto the most current examples..Denji and it wasn't like this.

In Part 1,he Definitely suffered and went through hell but it always had a purpose.

We actually see him with bonds and family ,we see him develop due to his trauma and support system and we also see him later on confront the woman who ruined his life and kill her and devour her.

But in Part2..his suffering kept on getting dragged out over and over and over and he kept on being manipulated by easily some of the worst manipulators ever..like they are so lucky that Denji is borderline braindead.

All the sexual harassment him and Asa went though didn't have a point,I'm just fully convinced Fujimoto has a fetish for that kinda thing and that checks out from a author who pretended to be his non-existent little sister, got turned on when he was younger when a girl stole his bike and ate his dead goldfish.

Like I am Sorely convinced Denji did something to Fujimoto to piss him TF off and the ending just really makes you question what was even the purpose.

And before any of you guys say "oh that's just realistic, sometimes people just suffer" first of all..shut the actual fuck up with that nonsense cause even you know it's not true.

Second of all, that doesn't make for any good writing or storytelling at all and just comes off as Torture Porn.

Yuji and Mark Grayson are both examples of suffering builds character cause that's what it actually does, it builds their characters.

Causes them to grow and develop and change as people and mature ,as it should.

What the hell is the point of giving your characters constant trauma if you're gonna do nothing with them.

Now I'm frankly not the biggest fan of that trope cause abuse of any kind isn't funny and I don't condone it but hear me out..I genuinely feel like that trope is fully capable of working out and being good/fun.

I know I probably sound like crazy but I feel like that trope can work but it can only work if for 3 reasons.

A.we actually know why said person doing the bullying is doing this and what lead them to do this.

B.we actually get to know them beyond being a bully and show them growing out of their ways or just show them as not a full on bully/asshole.

And C.the bully and person they're bullying don't get together until the former matures and becomes a better person.

I feel like a lot of people seem to forget that teenagers..can be messy.

They can be flawed and not know what the hell they're doing and saying at times and even messy.

So I genuinely feel like I can see a high schooler or middle schooler messing with their crush cause they like them but don't know how to put it into words and lacks the emotional maturity to handle these feelings.

But as long as they recognize they were a mess and become better from it or at least stop being a asshole.

Weirdly enough, Nagatoro manga was a good example of that trope and people really hold onto how she was in the beginning but genuinely ignore the fact that she recognized her behavior wasn't great and felt bad for it.

Plus keep in mind,she was a lot..lot worse in the welcomics and,at most in the anime and manga ,she just tends to tease and mess with him but can and will defend him from people who tend to take shit too far and will hurt him.

Plus as we saw,she adores him and he does like her back cause frankly, she's fun and goofy and has a lot of energy and he needed someone extroverted to get him out of his turtle shell.

Also it's not like they got together immediately, it took over 200+ chapters of growth and development from both sides before they got together.

I also feel like Hey Arnold was another good example of that trope with Helga and Arnold cause we not only saw why she was like this but also why she likes him.

Hell, they didn't get together until the series finale Jungle Movie(peak fiction).

Now..when a story ignores what the bully did and has them get together despite the bullying and such they did, then that's a big ass problem and it especially is a bigger issue when the characters are adults.

But if they're like kids or teens ,it makes a lot more sense and is honestly less bad.

Again, disagree with me if you want, this is just my honest opinion, please don't get mad at me.