u/Sudden_Pop_2279

Jax, Clark and Bojack are bad people but the other’s are genuine monsters

As someone who liked both Jax and Caine as characters and was among the fandom the day the leaks came out, I've noticed the most consistently divisive part of the ending were Jax and Caine's arcs. Initially, I thought maybe people had a point that fans were just upset it didn't end the way they wanted or even "we lacked media literacy". But as I sat down, I realized there WERE genuine flaws to their ending's. Do fans hate it because only one got redeemed? No, many fictional stories have one character get redemption while the other doesn't, The Owl House did it with The Collector and Belos. Is it because Caine was the one redeemed and not Jax? No, for the first 6 episodes, the majority of the fanbase would've easily agreed that was the case, especially as Gooseworx even called Jax "irredeemable".

The reason why a lot of fans disliked their ending's is due to lack execution and lack of build-up. Gooseworx has confirmed Jax was ALWAYS meant to abstract. It was in the very first pitch of the show. She even made a post decades ago about wanting to make a character hateable, then get the audience attached and then kill them off. She's been clear the story has always been set in stone from the start. Yet somehow, she managed to write it so it felt like there was more build-up to JAX being the one redeemed before the finale. Although many were certain after episode 6 Jax was going to abstract and his story would be a tragedy, epsiodes 7-8 seemed to subvert that. Jax was saved by Pomni. Jax actually contributed in both episodes to helping the group. We saw several scenes of the group making it clear that all of them, even Jax, are in it together.

Having Jax backslide in the finale and even abruptly abstracting (offscreen) isn't flawed on its own. Irl, people who are changing for the better can regress again. I don't hate the idea of Jax's story serving as a cautionary tale. But the contrast of Caine's arc is what makes it appalling. Caine was a sympathetic/tragic character from the start but his redemption had NO build-up. Ever since episode 5, really episode 3, the series has been building towards Caine finally crashing-out and snapping. Its repeatedly empathized how he seemingly can't grow beyond his program and how the humans simply do not care about him (Beach Episode, none care he'd be left behind). This culminated in episode 8 with Caine finally having his breakdown and having a tragic fate with his deletion,. Everything pointed to HIM being the cautionary tale of refusing to grow, only for it to be revealed in the last 20 minutes The Void was just a recyle bin, he realized he was the problem, he removes the blue AI and now he returns to replace Jax in the group.

Furthermore, most of the arguments I see used to explain why Caine was "more deserving" than Jax for redemption are actually misconceptions.

1. "Caine was an AI fulfilling his program, Jax was a human choosing to be like this", no the ENTIRE SERIES happened because of Caine growing beyond his programming. He broke free of his containment and consumed the blue AI, causing C&A to be shut down, made the circus and then started bringing the players in from their mind files. Caine's biggest flaw as Pomni said, was he refused to listen.
2. "Caine didn't know he was causing harm, Jax did", even without episode 8, that's not 100% true. Caine wasn't malicious but the fact he lied about hiding their names and controlling their minds does show to some extent, he had always capacity for moral agency. Furthermore, Gooseworx herself confirmed Jax genuinely has deluded himself into thinking his bullying isn't actually that bad. Most abusers don't see themselves that way and it applies for both. People say Caine had good intentions but its clear from epsiodes 5-8 that he cared for satisfying his own ego above all (Pomni even says as such) and cares more for the idea of the players than anything. At least Jax cried for Kaufmo, Caine didn't show emotion for Kaufy OR Queenie, which gave the vibe he cared for the players for the validation he can get and knows they can be replaced like NPC's.
3. "Caine was only like this once, Jax was just bad", Jax started off normal too though. He only became a bully later during his time in the circus. Caine was the one who trapped his "brother" out of pure jealousy from the start and while not consistently a prick like Jax, he ultimately still became intentionally malicious later on. Both had reasons but not excuses.
4. "Caine took the first chance, Jax had numerous" Caine had several chances too. He saw the humans being happy in Untitled, but prioritized them being happy on his terms. In episode 8, he came to the conclusion THEY were the problem. Even when they truthfully called him out what he did wrong, he choose to double down and torture them worse. And this leds to the biggest and final issue. Jax was like this for a few years, Caine spent 21 years manipulating the humans and refusing to compromise with them (pretending he can't opene several adventures at once), which almost certainy could've prevented numerous abstractions if he was honest earlier.

And the final is pacing and easy forgiveness. The fact all of Caine's growth comes AFTER he got deleted is the true problem fans have. Jax had numerous moments where he got close to opening up (the cafe with Gangle, towards Pomni in the finale) but changed his mind. Caine is nowbasically outright confirmed by Gooseworx to be immortal, since The Void is a recylce bin. Everything deleted just gets sent there. So this basically means Caine had eternity for change. Its never "too late" for him and that's why he gets a better ending. Both he and Jax only realize their flaws AFTER their "death" and want to change/be saved, but Caine gets to come back solely due to his powers. Caine went from torturing people AM style to having a redemption the literal next episode. Many Jax fans agreed he didn't need to be fully redeemed by the end, but rather it was being set-up and the series should end with some forgiving him (Pomni, Kinger, maybe Ragatha) while other's don't (Zooble and Gangle). Instead, we get "Caine just to remove a piece of himself to change, comes back to the group and he's instantly accepted by everyone".

I've seen people talk about how he was blushing, the the electricity flowing between his antenna to show he was nervous, the laugh as he realizes Alastor is serious, the static coming as he gets sad, the way his antenna's fall over and his visions clouds as he goes "I thought because we were friends" but what gets me is the way how after Alastor looks at his hand and laugh, it just starts shaking before Vox pulls it back. That was a small but such a good detail that shows the moment his heart started to break in two.

I've seen people talk about how he was blushing, the the electricity flowing between his antenna to show he was nervous, the laugh as he realizes Alastor is serious, the static coming as he gets sad, the way his antenna's fall over and his visions clouds as he goes "I thought because we were friends" but what gets me is the way how after Alastor looks at his hand and laugh, it just starts shaking before Vox pulls it back. That was a small but such a good detail that shows the moment his heart started to break in two.

I've seen people talk about how he was blushing, the the electricity flowing between his antenna to show he was nervous, the laugh as he realizes Alastor is serious, the static coming as he gets sad, the way his antenna's fall over and his visions clouds as he goes "I thought because we were friends" but what gets me is the way how after Alastor looks at his hand and laugh, it just starts shaking before Vox pulls it back. That was a small but such a good detail that shows the moment his heart started to break in two.

I've seen people talk about how he was blushing, the the electricity flowing between his antenna to show he was nervous, the laugh as he realizes Alastor is serious, the static coming as he gets sad, the way his antenna's fall over and his visions clouds as he goes "I thought because we were friends" but what gets me is the way how after Alastor looks at his hand and laugh, it just starts shaking before Vox pulls it back. That was a small but such a good detail that shows the moment his heart started to break in two.

Notice how all the Overlord's of Hell seem to be known for a different piece of art/media. As we can see with the Vees, Vox is the Media Overlord (even called as such by Vaggi), Valentino's the Film Overlord and Velvette's the Social Media Overlord. Viv even noted in the Colldier's Night Interview how Zeezi is like the hip hop Overlord and Maestro is like classical music Overlord.

What I find interesting is Alastor is the only one that we know of that isn't known as an Overlord but a demon. Specifically the Radio Demon ofc. A few months ago, I noticed in "Curtain Call" how Vox brags "I'm the most powerful sinner in Hell" while Alastor specifically says "baby I'm a demon in Hell" and brags to Rosie about being one later on. Even though sinners, Overlords and demon are all one and the same, the fact the term is consistently used specifically for Alastor is 100% intentional IMO. I think these details, combined with Alastor literally sliding into frame as Charlie says, "I'm just as bad as the cruelest Overlord in Hell" is the series giving hints how Alastor will truly prove himself to be the worst of the worst.

Milton was just a psychopath but Pawbert’s more of a tragic villain that desire his family’s love due to being mistreated by them, which allows for some sympathy. However, I also like unlike most examples of”Sympathetic Villain, Despicable Villain”, just because Pawbert has a sad past doesn’t mean he gets redeemed and he’s still treated as a villain

This is shockingly the only episode where he's actually LESS terrible with new context.

Before the finale, everyone assumed him grabbing the bowling ball was just an excuse to get out of there (which was dumb, because why not just immediately run) and that he abandoned Pomni and Ragatha due to sheer cowardice. However, episode 9 reveals the bowling ball originally belong to Ribbit, hinting either Kaufmo or Jax owned it afterwards and Jax really did want to get it ack. Furthermore, its actually shown he ran away to cry for Kaufmo in private rather than purely to just abandon them.

Also he moment he lied to Kinger and Gangle about Kaufmo and threw the bowling ball at them. Many thought this moment showed how he just didn't care but after the context of the finale, he was certainly trying to protect them from abstracted Kaufmo.

Even him telling Gangle "Its Kaufmo, don't worry about it. He's fine" is probably his screwed up way of trying to resassure her. A lot of people say Jax caring for Kaufmo is a retcon but I disagree, we can see him clinching his fists in anger when Caine locks him in the cellar. He always cared but was hiding it.

Look at his collar; it seems this old design has two black hearts on it. He doesn’t have this at all during any point when he was on Earth or in the present day. Is this a symbol of his feelings towards Alastor?

Look at his collar; it seems this old design has two black hearts on it. He doesn’t have this at all during any point when he was on Earth or in the present day. Is this a symbol of his feelings towards Alastor?

Look at his collar; it seems this old design has two black hearts on it. He doesn’t have this at all during any point when he was on Earth or in the present day. Is this a symbol of his feelings towards Alastor?

Look at his collar; it seems this old design has two black hearts on it. He doesn’t have this at all during any point when he was on Earth or in the present day. Is this a symbol of his feelings towards Alastor?

In Camp Cretaceous, both Tiff and Daniel Kon abandon the person they loved most at a crucial moment to save themself. While Tiff died pathetically moments later (and frankly, didn't seem to feel much remorse for what she did), Daniel did live long enough to regret his actions and eventually, when faced the same situation again, choose to protect his son at the cost of his life over saving himself.

Say whatever you want about Mike but he was good boyfriend to Nancy (mcuh better than Lance was to Ash). He bought her diamond earing's and he even trusted her to have the keys to his car. And its for that very reason, why she was able to come and save his life from the bears at the end (as Sing: Thriller confirms they're alive and still together, which is cute)

To be clear, I'm not opposed to it happening in the 3rd movie or in Zootopia+, I mainly am referring to in the 2nd movie. It feels like every Disney animated antagonist nowadays is either "not evil, just misunderstood" and gets redeemed at the end (the two recent Toy Story's, Encanto, Inside Out 2) or just purely evil (Titus from Hoppers, Milton in this very film, King Magnificeo). I love how Pawbert isn't either one.

I really like how he shows how a tragic villain doesn't always get redeemed. He's not a generic twist villain like Lotso or Turbo, he's a more well-written Prince Hans if anything. Someone who's been a outcast and mistreated by their family and wants to prove himself. Its not out of prejudice like Bellwether or simply greed like Ebenezer and his dad, he wants to accepted by those he loves and will do anything for that.

Another good exmaple of a character who's sympathetic but wasn't redeemed is >!Jax!< from The Amazing Digital Circus, who's my favorite character from that show. The way he doesn't immediately reject Judy's offer but looks diwn sadly and then goes "I don't want to be different" is such the perfect summary of his character (although the dub of "I've already been different" is arguably even better); he's so broken that he genuinely doesn't see any path for him but to finally belong in his family by doing this; its why I love the confirmation from Jared "we've always been better than you and always will be" wasn't his genuine belief but repeating what the other Lynxley's have told him, it shows just how much he's been influenced by them.

Pawbert calls for his "daddy" as he's overpowered and his kids hide behind him for protection but the's the guy who'll order a lethal tranq shot at his kid or use them as human shields without a 2nd thought